More Important to be an E&Y Poser w/a BMW than Qualified

We should retreat and be smart enough to work for ourselves. Your sister probably has gone through much worse than she is willing to admit, but she needs to know what goes around comes around, and as long as America continues the racism she will continue her slide.

Scheduler, you're right about that. Americans also are too stupid to realize that they have given away, and continue to give away, many of their personal freedoms and by voting Republicans into office they have largely given away their right to employment. Todays children have nothing to look forward to, but their parents don't realize it yet.

Guest in Charlotte, you cannot blame it all on the Republicans, Democrats have partnered with them to aide and participate in the games they are currently playing.

This thread has gone off topic.

How about a new topic.
Meritocracy in the workplace is: a destructive myth or a ideal worth striving for?

When we create the idea that skills, education, and experience (i.e. the resume) are the only factors in the work place does it do more harm than good?
Should we let go of that idea altogether? Or should companies keep striving to eliminate all human prejudice? How could Ernst&Young go about becoming more of a meritocracy?

Of course meritocracy should be the baseline for hiring anyone in any company. However Ernst & Young has set a precedent for something other than meritocracy, since this board states in no uncertain terms by those employed by a company who uses WASPocracy to hire mediocre types and bring down any meritocracy they may have gained.

I work in EY and I must echo the thoughts of alot of people who have worked in EY and found out the hard way that EY does not compensate their employees well. The come up with "brain washing" stunts like..."lactating mothers program, flexibility (huh!!) and EY conceiarge (which you would have to pay for) and tell you that they provide total compensations. Are you kidding me...who uses all these stuff on a monthly basis anyway. I have heard that amongst it;s peer firms (e.g. PwC and DT) EY pays the lowest basic salary. How low? Almost 20% less than PwC. Go figure!!!

From someone who is in here waiting to get out...I have said my peace. The rest is up to you.

scheduler in Brooklyn, New York said: TX You have no clue about racism, and what it has, does and will do if you are of the majority. And if from TX, you never encounter the issues posted on this job board for E&Y.

The black female astronaut was arrested in Texas for God sakes vs a white one who almost killed someone looking at her man. It seems if you are black you will be arrested at one time or another if you reside in TX...I don't know,

I've run into quite a few TX managers who get enraged by experience & knowledge of color, you feel it and they let you know, ignorant enough to just come out look like total fools, above everything professional.

I find it extremely hypocritical that you whine and complain about the existence of racism on the one hand, then accuse someone of being racist based on his or her geographical location on the other. Just because there are some blacks who are bad doesn't mean ALL blacks are bad. Just because there are some Texans who are racist doesn't mean ALL Texans are racist.

I didn't see anywhere in his post where he said or implied all TX people were racist.

The south does tend to have more open racism. And I know lots of people, black or white that can attest to that. Including yours truly.

Non EYer in Dallas, Texas said: You're all a bunch of loosers. They don't care about your color. They care if you do a good job. Instead of blaming failures on your race, look at your resume and work ethic.

in a word...spellcheck

I had a Texan manager tell me if I ever took my bl--- a-- to
Texas, he was pretty damn sure I would be arrested because I was one of those too smart, uppity "N"s. This was a manager who later got removed when NYC management saw he was making $95,000 a year, playing solitare for eight hours a day.

On another note, a Texan and his wife were racist in a major federal employment situation, and they were so ignorant they would call people of color working on the project blacks monkeys, the "N" word and anything else. They were just ignorant and stupid and I'll leave it at that.

My grandmother would give my grandfather a tongue lashing and a half anytime we were on vacation and he got lost even being close to Texas. She told me to never go there, and so far, I've only been in a few of the airports for transfers, thank God!

As the original poster stated, if they arrested the first Black Female astronaut, they will arrest anyone of color, so those of you brave enough to go the one of the most racist states on the planet, BEWARE of the IGNORANT RACIST!!!

As an intern they'll treat you very well and pay you overtime. Go on full time and stick around for a while - you'll be in for a pretty horrible experience. I was in their IT Audit and Security practice.

The Audit (AABS) group is not a fun group to be in, especially during busy season. This may be the case with a lot of accounting firms, but working 70-80 hr's a week, not getting compensated appropriately, and having to work weekends without decent recognition for your work would make any place tough to work.

I used to work in the IT group doing support and teaching new hire classes as well. The goal is to hire as many as possible, make them work like crazy, and maintain a retention rate of MAYBE 50%. If they do that, they consider it a success.

I spent almost 6 years at the firm, both on the internal support side and client service side. If you've got questions or concerns, I'm sure I can address many of them!

When I worked in IT, it was the same way. The managers, brokers under them received bonuses in the millions, sometimes tens of millions and hundreds of thousands of dollars. On Bonus Day, word would leak out as to how much this one got and how much that one got, but in IT sectors, the employees are considered service, and only the VP of the IT groups get the bonuses.

Sounds like it is the same way. I remember the interns coming in for the summer and loving it. After they became full time employees, you would hear the little rich girls who went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton or Whartons Business school complaining about the offices they had, the hours they worked and the pay which was around $40,000 or so.

I worked at JP Morgan before the merger with Chase and someone on this posting board mentioned how it was like Wal-Mart and Tiffanys trying to merge, one that just cannot, did not happen and succeed without one either gaining quality vs. one losing quality. Of course they lost quality. Ernst & Young, the other IBs are probably no different. Bear Stearns was rumoured to be a good place to work, but I am sure the same goes on there.

Until the youth who are out there coming out of the desirable institutions realize and capitalize on their power as the lowly employee, the percentages of retention will be considered successful even at 40%, maybe 30%, as long as the profits for the managers are large and they can keep the McMansion and build another one.

Thanks for your comment. This board is highly successful in that the truth is coming out about corporate America in the financial industry. It's time for for us to all come together in this country for the betterment of good, for we all are in this together.

I worked for E&Y for 11 years. I never witnessed any discrimination. Everyone had diversity training every few years and most people were afraid of engaging in any sort of harassing or discriminatory behavior.

I am a white male and was an assistant director (a relatively high rank in practice support) there and worked for women, asians, and african-americans who were above me in rank many times. I had no problem with this.

I realize that racisim and other types of discrimination exist in corporate america, but not at E&Y in my experience. I never worked in the NYC office, but he culture elsewhere in the firm is not as discriminatory as some here have described.

Here's a question for those in the Chicago, or any, region. I have been looking through jobs at E&Y for like, the past 6 months (although from what I've read here, I think I'll stop, now) and I'm curious about something:

Why is it that there are ALWAYS E&Y positions open for upper level people (Senior, Manager, Executive, Director,etc.), I mean TONS of them, but rarely any STAFF positions? They seem to be on an eternal prowl for upper management.

You would think that the staff would be moving into these positions. So, my question is, are the entry-level folks staying in those positions forever, or are they saving those positions for direct student recruits? And why so many openings in the Tax area?

Really, just go to ey.com and search the Chicago jobs. Can somebody explain this to me?

Well the firm hires a lot of staff right out of school. During my time there, most of the new hires that were staff came directly out of school. It's the mentality that the kids are fresh and vulnerable to working long hours for not that much money.

The average starting salary for a new staff is in the low to mid 50k's in Chicago. For someone coming right out of school that's not too bad.. but calculate the amount of travel time and hours you put in on a weekly basis that you aren't compensated for, and your salary breaks down to approx $14-15/hour. My average travel time on a weekly basis was around 10 hours (this is on the low side). Average overtime I worked (but did not charge because my managers would never let me bill the actual time worked to meet the budget) was around 12-14 hours per week when it WASN'T busy season. Of course these are estimated and it varies by group. For Financial Auditors - It's even worse!

As for the higher positions, I will say that the firm does take care of them. Senior Managers and Partners do very well - which is the main reason why staff and seniors are the most stressed out. Not only that, to be a Senior or Manager is the absolute worst - the amount of hours you put in will little compensation really makes for a horrible work environment. You'll notice a lot of EY people that work at clients will end up working for a client, because they can see how much better they're treated. I am a perfect example of this!

EY is s stepping stone - it's almost like having to put in your time. I advise people who are looking to be a staff to not stay very long. In Chicago, the turn around was in upwards of 65% (sometimes more).

If you like to travel, take advantage of the free meals and hotel/airline points you get.. it all gets charged to the client anyway. I racked up a TON during my time there and still use them for vacations :) definitely a nice perk.

Hope that helps!

You're all arguing like a bunch of first graders. Political correctness is killing this country. People take things far too personally. Most people now days could care less the color of your skin and rather are more concerned with what you can or cannot do for them. The government imposes certain criteria for corporations and for individuals which frankly, makes everyone look bad and puts everyone in a bad situation; color or no color. For crying out loud we all have color to our skin, they're just different tones. Why can't we leave it at that? This world is so full of misunderstanding and personal selfishness it's disqusting. We all think differently. It seems the one's that don't take offense are usually the ones that succeed in work and in life.. Eventually, people need to realize it works to be the bigger person. The more we argue and the more we fight, the bigger the issue becomes; and further we drift from resolution. Look at yourselves before you judge others.

There's several problems that go on, in different degrees. One is groupthink - whenever you encounter a group that are all the same (whether by race, religion, what have you), there is groupthink and you're either an insider or an outsider. Another is how many members of various minorities are prejudiced against other minorities - note I didn't say ALL here. Another is how people who don't know much (or anything) about another race lean on biases because they have no personal experience, which is often the Caucasian behavior. But this can breed the problems people here are discussing.

We're not talking about political correctness, which is just a throwaway term to avoid talking about reality. We're also not talking about some group coma - this stuff exists. I'm half Caucasian, half Asian. The best boss I ever had was a white male, the worst was an Asian female, but this had nothing to do with race and everything to do with maturity and competence. But - I have been discriminated against, sometimes by Caucasians, sometimes by Asians, and in those cases, because I wasn't one of them. Saying "look to yourself" hardly addresses that issue, does it?

I work in Ernst and Young, they are not racist! ... It seems a lot of people here can't live with the fact they are not white or have a good look ... Well u people do what you do best BLAME OTHERS FOR UR MISTAKES!!!

Pancho, what mistakes? Are you implying that there is NO discrimination in corporate America? Remember the Texaco executives? The Indian girl who started this forum says someone she knew overheard why she didn't get hired.

Don't trust this example? Read my post above about my Harvard, U.Chicago educated aunt.

I've heard many whites in high positions make snide remarks about other races. You don't think that carries over in their decision making? It's true if you prove yourself as a minority, you will eventually get hired, but sometimes, we aren't given a chance to prove ourselves.

The thing many non-minorities don't understand is how insensitive they can be.

Case in point. Men won't be as sensitive to gender discrmination because they are MEN. Why can't race be the same way? People are just bothered because we are calling the discriminatio out.

Harvard studies show America is still in denial about racism and discrimination. I guess you all are just another statistic.

That's the thing that gets me about some of you. You argue without even reading the posts. It shows how little of value you can add to the conversation.

Oooh, so much to get off my chest:

People on both sides should realize that Ernst and Young is a large corporation and just because there isn't discrimination in your office doesn't mean there isn't any elsewhere. That's like a black person going to a Mississippi pizza joint, receiving good treatment, and saying that there is no racism in Mississippi. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Secondly, I noticed the people claiming there is no discrimination really don't understand. It's obvious, because the usual reply is "don't blame others for your mistakes" or "there's too much political correctness".

What in the world do political correctness and mistakes have to do with it? Actually, the politically correct thing to do is avoid any talk of racism and discrimination. So YOU guys are the ones being PC.

The antidote to PC is to TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES. Minorities and women ARE discriminated on a day-to-day basis. I'm not saying minorities don't play the blame game, because I think we do. I'm not saying we can't be successful, because we often are. I'm not saying there aren't good-minded whites that see around race and promote others, because those people exist. I'm saying that people do discriminate, and it happens on a regular basis. Did I commit a crime? Are you going to call the message board police? OOOH! I used the "R" word!

I've mentioned this before, but I think it needs reiteration. I went to a private, prestigous institution, made it into a good graduate school program, and the like. However, I've had people doubt my skills as a programmer and mathematician. You think this behavior is weeded out because it's corporate America?

I'm not saying everybody is like this. I'm saying people like this STILL EXIST. It seems to me, the smart, logical, intelligent thing to do is acknowledge this rif-raff exists and try to do something about it than sweeping it under the rug.

Thank you so much nerd_boy from Texas for your intellectual, on-point intuitive post.

The economy is in shambles, sub-prime mortgages are causing foreclosures, the stock market is about to crash the economy into a current day depression. Fires are destroying houses/mansions and the rich man's livelihood in California. A new staph virus seems to be infiltrating schools, killing our youth, and our fool president is trying to start another war that Americans are not equipped to win.
Stockbrokers are losing their jobs, as hedge funds crash! The sports industries are suffering due diligence, I can go on and on.

Some of the racists, the greater than thou rich white folk are starting to feel the same misadventures that historically minorities endure from day to day. Droughts are infiltrating the south east where utopia has existed for too long for too many ungrateful so-called majority Americans.

When there is no sympathy -- as things start to normalize, hopefully the best and brightest (of all races) will be forced to put our feet forward and have the last laugh when we save this sick society we live in from disaster stemming from racism.

Folk, now in the majority who judge will not understand when they lose their jobs, homes, credit scores, cars and no one has empathy or will understand, because you know what goes around always comes around.

Keep 'em coming nerd_boy from Texas, for we are making a difference by writing on this board. We are helping each other get through hard times, resulting from ignorance enumerated from racism, favoritism, privilege and below average mentalities which have ruled this country and her corporate structure for too long!!!

When I happened upon this site I had to comment. I was recently let go from E&Y after many years of hard work and faithful but thankless service. I was not alone. Beginning in 2007 my region and particular practice had 12 african american professionals. By the close of 2007 there are only 4 left and dwindling. There was a clean sweep of other minorities including asians and hispanics in the area. The reasons sited was a downturn in the market. However the market has been able to sustain every white individual's position. The bottom line is the firm (as many others) is racist. Regardless of your work ethic, education, professionalism, experience, etc., etc., when the chips are down you're still only a guest at the table and will be easily dismissed. This firm has no investment in minorities. You are given the worst assignents, given very little exposure to executives and not viewed on the same par as your caucasian counterparts. They see you as a temp with no long-term potential and definitely not to achieve partner status. So if you expect to work for the firm see it for what it is. A great line item on your resume to transition you into your next misadventure. :)

To the latest poster who stated layoffs of African Americans and others, it's time to do something. Asians, Hispanics, AAs should all make sure our funds are divested as we are from companies like E&Y.

Keep posting and 2008 will prove to be a different year for us all.

Hi- I saw your posting about E&Y. I currently recieved an offer for a position. In the JD it mentions that their will be long hours involved (however, they mentioned this was just a standardized template they use)- I was told by HR upon my offer that the work day would be 10 hours and I will be given a lap top. I'm concerned that I will surpass 10 hours a day. I'm confused about taking the role for this reason, and I'm certain it wouldn't be a good idead to ask the company. They mentioned overtime will not be given to me. I know auditors work the long hours, but does this apply to everyone? I would appreciate any additional color on this company related to long hours?

I have been using this forum for information every since I started my process with EY. I am sure some criticism is unbiased and even valid, but I have found my experience not represented here. There are several reasons to explain career path. To blame it on race alone says that you view the world and problems in your life as race alone and not based on my actions. My race is not my affliction it is a genetic variation by which weak people define me. I can devalue my beliefs to judge myself the same way, or I can keep my eye on the prize: my pursuit of happiness.

Either you haven't been there very long or you're part of the admin. staff. In either case give it a year and you'll see. Hate to be so cynical but it's a reality.

I am not saying the phenomena described herein does not occur or is rampant in corporate America. I am an economist: bias occurs. Nevertheless, to solely react to race based bias is reductivist by nature. There are a variety of parameters to measure wage and career progress over time. Why focus on a parameter you cannot directly control: can't change your skin color, shouldn't be ashamed of who you are, might be able to change how others view you - but not likely, and legal relief provides a time consuming and superficial solution.
You can accept responsibility for your labor market decisions. While there may be a higher incidence among minorities, this specific employment phenomena is not racial based. Should you you choose to stay in an environment that limits your career outcomes, you must except reality.
Take the time to hone skills that maximize returns in your respective marketplace. This is the real opportunity embodied in corporate America. The facts in this debate are that racial bias acts in a simple two pronged vector: access and privileged. If one feels that their access is not being maximized, one must seek out other avenues or create your own. If you feel that your privilege in the marketplace is not being maximized you can create your own privileged or seek out other redress.
If this seems like an onerous burden for a labor market participant, I must caution you with the final economic reality: the afore mentioned risks consistently yield greater opportunity than dealing with our society's woefully inadequate legal and civil redress for racial minorities.

Finally, I must address the thinly veiled rhetoric, nay personal assault. I may well be an administrator or a person who hasn't "been there very long" but my argument is not premised on these assumptions.

I have given you an argument, and you have not responded. Instead, you have called me names. You may hate your left handedness but it is who you are: at least it is all you have shown here. This is the reality: you "hate" who you are and offer up this hate as an excuse to not deal with the facts.

I will "give it a year and" and see. But you demean my existence as a minority by claiming my experience is not as valid as your own. I would have to have been living in an isolation chamber for the past 30+ years in order for me not to have personally experience what you describe. The difference is my outlook and yours. The glass is half full for you. The glass is neither half full or half empty; it simply contains a certain volume of matter which I must correctly perceive, or else I fail to maximize what I can do with it.

I disagree with the idea of divestment. I'd rather increase investment and tell the powers that be to get their act together or they get replaced. This occurs too seldom in corporate America.

Guest in Charlotte, North Carolina said: tn_nerd boy: I have a sister who is somewhat like you. She earned degrees from elite schools and has worked in corporate America for 14 years, her entire career. Whenever she tells me about certain situations I tell her immediately that it's racism. She chooses, however, to try to find every other explanation for why it's happening. Let me give you an example: a large company hired her for it's diversity program and on her first day there, the manager whom she reported to acted as if she didn't know anything about my sister's employment. For the life of me I couldn't convince my sister that the manager was trying to tell her that she considered the diversity program a waste of time. The manager constantly kept my sister out of the loop and gave her bad evaluations. The Senior manager knew what was going on and changed the evaluations, but he didn't reprimand the junior manager. Now my sister has quit and is going to work for a non-profit. Her salary will be reduced by $20,000 or more and she has immersed herself in church. That is not the first time she has received less than fair treatment. It's been that way throughout her career and she keeps leaving Fortune 500 companies, hoping that the next one will be better. I think she had a breakdown and doesn't realize it. She blames her misfortune on corporate structure, but the white VPs sitting next to her haven't given up their $85,000-plus salaaries in frustration. It's racism, plain and simple. The thing you should remember is that you're Black and it's not really going to get any better for you. The most we as a people can hope for is that we won't lose any of the ground we gained when I was a youngster (I'm almost 50 now). It's a bitter pill to have to swallow, but that's just the way it is and will be for the foreseeable future, thanks to the Republicans.

You sister should run for President, if Obama can win certainly she is qualified too. Equality!

NWU MBA-GRAD in Naperville, Illinois said: I have had difficulty in the application process with E&Y as well. The EEOC disclosure appears to be a conduit to screen-out disenfranchised minority applicants. The Big 4 portends inclusion. Yet, there is a distinct difference between the promulgation of this ideal and the actual hiring and subsequent promotion of qualified, disenfranchised minorities.

The aforementioned practice must stop.

If your cover letter reads anything like your blog post, I think I know what your problem is: you write like you are trying to impress not express.

The problem is that it makes other people uncomfortable. Hiring managers don't want to have to reference a dictionary while reading your cover letter.

Most employers ask for an effective communicator not an impressive one. Speak and write to express, not impress and you may have an easier time finding a job.