Massage Envy Salaries, Bonuses and Benefits.

ME is not the only place that only has a 50 min massage nowadays. There are places that still do 60 mins but they are different business models. Again its like comparing apples to oranges. In ME's model it is more lucrative for the therapist to be booked for their whole shift. So to be booked your whole shift when working 7 hrs is to have 6 clients on the hour. What LMT/CMT said about doing 4 in an 8 hr shift is true but only in that business model. Its just like with the health benefits thing. Full time at ME (25 hours of massage) to full time in other industries (35+ hours). You can't really compare because its obviously not the same. So why do people do it? It makes no sense to me

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: I book the therapist when the therapist is open. Weather its 9-10 or 9:15-10:15. If there is a walk in, I will do the massage myself if nobody is available. We work mainley by appointment and our regulars and others know this and book ahead just like that famous restauraunt in your town that everybody wants to get into just because its busy. they know we stay booked so they will book ahead of time. We get referals from Doctors, Sports teams and hospitals. If we do 30 massages 1 day and 20 the next, then so be it. my therapists are contractors and get paid very well. the tips average $20. We cater to a different clientel and charge more for different services. My therapists dont sit around any more than you claim yours do. I worked at other spas that did the same and it was never a problem. One place booked you lets say at 9am to 10 am and she put a 1/2 hr break in betweeen each appt. So if you worked a 8 hr shift, you did 4 massages, but again, she paid a lot more than these franchises. Because you charge $39 for a massage, you dont have the choice to do this, massage to these franchises is about quantity and contracts. That is not what this profession is about.

My clients know they have to book ahead with me as well. I might work for ME but the massage I give is not about contracts or quantity. Its about my clients well being. Truthfully I'm kind of offended by that generalized statement. Some of my clients have me booked out as far as October because they know how hard it is to get in with me. One guy has me as far as Jan 3rd. I don't think people would do that unless there was quality in my massage.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: ME is not the only place that only has a 50 min massage nowadays. There are places that still do 60 mins but they are different business models. Again its like comparing apples to oranges. In ME's model it is more lucrative for the therapist to be booked for their whole shift. So to be booked your whole shift when working 7 hrs is to have 6 clients on the hour. What LMT/CMT said about doing 4 in an 8 hr shift is true but only in that business model. Its just like with the health benefits thing. Full time at ME (25 hours of massage) to full time in other industries (35+ hours). You can't really compare because its obviously not the same. So why do people do it? It makes no sense to me

This is the point! This is why I have said from the beginning of this forum as to why ME and others like them are not good for this industry. The ME model makes it hard for everyone. The only way this model works is to offer a 50 min massage, $39 massages, contracts, under pay therapists and work therapists to death so they can make the same money they would somwhere else working half as hard because they would get paid more. This is not what massage therapy is about. The fact that this wont work with the ME model, is the point. At ME a therapist has to be booked their whlole shift if they want to make the money they need, its quantity and contracts, without it, ME would go under.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: My clients know they have to book ahead with me as well. I might work for ME but the massage I give is not about contracts or quantity. Its about my clients well being. Truthfully I'm kind of offended by that generalized statement. Some of my clients have me booked out as far as October because they know how hard it is to get in with me. One guy has me as far as Jan 3rd. I don't think people would do that unless there was quality in my massage.

Again. its not about you. We are talking about ME as a whole. You have to know what it takes to make this model fly. Its the contracts and cheap massage that keep ME afloat for the most part. you can give examples of your experiences, but again, I know plenty of ME therapists and the clinics they work for are run very differently. If you are booked the way you say, you desearve to get paid a fair wage. I know you think you are getting it, but I can guarantee you that if I were to hire you based on being that good a therapist, you would get a heck of a lot more than you are now. I know you are happy with ME, but you have to realize you could be doing better. This model takes money out of your pocket in order to operate. They want to offer Wal Mart pricing, and you are paying for it. I know you dont see it that way, but I think you would if you were a therapist for the last 10 yrs. Newer people see things now and think this is the norm, but I can tell you its not. Im not trying to tear down ME, I just feel bad for therapists today that undervalue their gifts. Once upon a time there was no price on healing touch and the effect on the human soul, now Corporations have come up with the price.....$39???? Sad.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: How do other spas do it?? Do you think everyone is doing 50 min massages now? Its about volume Gray, thats MEs objective, how many can we squeeze in today? I am not going to argue this wth you. Its not like your going to change the model right? and since I never plan on working for you, its none of my business right?:) Im sure you are smart enough to figure out how it can be done It simply means doing less massages in a day and sacraficing volume for quality and customer service, spending time with your client. How was it done 10 years ago?? There was massage before these franchises you know.

I don't work at ME, but the massages are 50 min and are scheduled on the hour. It's a terrible way to work because when we're back to back we don't get a moment to even use the restroom. Not only that.....but they claim they want to sched on the hour and include a 10 min. consultation....that would take a first appt at 9am to 10 am....well, what happens to my 10 am appt? After my 9am I have to change the table and do anything else that needs to be done. I'm not able to pick up that client at 10am...so this puts us behind ALL THE TIME...and the stress is awful! We all need at least 15 min. in betw. appts.

Bebe730 in North Las Vegas, Nevada said: I don't work at ME, but the massages are 50 min and are scheduled on the hour. It's a terrible way to work because when we're back to back we don't get a moment to even use the restroom. Not only that.....but they claim they want to sched on the hour and include a 10 min. consultation....that would take a first appt at 9am to 10 am....well, what happens to my 10 am appt? After my 9am I have to change the table and do anything else that needs to be done. I'm not able to pick up that client at 10am...so this puts us behind ALL THE TIME...and the stress is awful! We all need at least 15 min. in betw. appts.

This is an example of Corporate greed and is NOT why we got into this field. The therapists are there for one reason and the owners another its healing VS greed, plain and simple and their clients are starting to catch on, at least where I am, I have several new ex ME clients that just came to me this week and thats not counting the ones I had before.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: This is an example of Corporate greed and is NOT why we got into this field. The therapists are there for one reason and the owners another its healing VS greed, plain and simple and their clients are starting to catch on, at least where I am, I have several new ex ME clients that just came to me this week and thats not counting the ones I had before.

What do you charge for massage that has them flocking to your clinic?

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: What do you charge for massage that has them flocking to your clinic?

Well gray, I will give you the same answer you gave me about your benefits, you dont plan on working for me, so why should I give you information on my business?? It takes more than cheap massage, but I guess ME doesnt understand that. Its funny, as a ME owner you automatically think price point as if thats the important thing, but then again, I guess it is a big part of the ME model right? Im not going to tell you about how my business operates or my strategies.

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: What do you charge for massage that has them flocking to your clinic?

I'm guessing it's quality massages and not price.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: This is an example of Corporate greed and is NOT why we got into this field. The therapists are there for one reason and the owners another its healing VS greed, plain and simple and their clients are starting to catch on, at least where I am, I have several new ex ME clients that just came to me this week and thats not counting the ones I had before.

So true....and it is evident to us through many other situations that crop up. So...how do we get employers to prefer healing over greed????

Bebe730 in North Las Vegas, Nevada said: I'm guessing it's quality massages and not price.

Among many other factors, but now you are giving away my secret:)

Bebe730 in North Las Vegas, Nevada said: So true....and it is evident to us through many other situations that crop up. So...how do we get employers to prefer healing over greed????

You cant. Unfortunately you will have owners that get into this field for the wrong reasons. Thats where we, as therapists need to go back to the beginning and remember why we entered this field to begin with. Remember, without us, these businesses would not survive. Somewhere down the line we had a resposibility to our profession, and we compromised.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: You cant. Unfortunately you will have owners that get into this field for the wrong reasons. Thats where we, as therapists need to go back to the beginning and remember why we entered this field to begin with. Remember, without us, these businesses would not survive. Somewhere down the line we had a resposibility to our profession, and we compromised.

There are so many of these owners that therapists get sucked in due to responsibilities and desperately needing experience if they are fresh out of school.

Bebe730 in North Las Vegas, Nevada said: There are so many of these owners that therapists get sucked in due to responsibilities and desperately needing experience if they are fresh out of school.

True, but as I've stated before on this forum, I dont have a problem with people working anywhere to put food on the table. If you have to work at a gas station, Target, Massage Envy etc, there is no shame in doing that to put food on the table and provide for your family. You do what you have to do. I just think that a lot of therpists coming out of school settle too quickly for these concepts because its the easy route. These clinics are always hiring and therapists go as fast as they came. People need to explore other oportunities before they settle for the Corporate machine. We are healers, not robots and cash registers.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: True, but as I've stated before on this forum, I dont have a problem with people working anywhere to put food on the table. If you have to work at a gas station, Target, Massage Envy etc, there is no shame in doing that to put food on the table and provide for your family. You do what you have to do. I just think that a lot of therpists coming out of school settle too quickly for these concepts because its the easy route. These clinics are always hiring and therapists go as fast as they came. People need to explore other oportunities before they settle for the Corporate machine. We are healers, not robots and cash registers.

It's true...they do settle too quickly, which is why these owners go after them. They know they're eager to do massage and will be able to work them like they do. How do you break out of it? Most of the employers here are all the same. The only way I see breaking free is to do your own thing to get back in touch with the REAL meaning of massage. Other than that, I'm at a loss.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: Well gray, I will give you the same answer you gave me about your benefits, you dont plan on working for me, so why should I give you information on my business?? It takes more than cheap massage, but I guess ME doesnt understand that. Its funny, as a ME owner you automatically think price point as if thats the important thing, but then again, I guess it is a big part of the ME model right? Im not going to tell you about how my business operates or my strategies.

You should give us this information because you post regularly here about what a great clinic you have and how good you are to your therapists (despite no benefits). Come on, cough up the particulars about what makes you so great.

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: You should give us this information because you post regularly here about what a great clinic you have and how good you are to your therapists (despite no benefits). Come on, cough up the particulars about what makes you so great.

My therapists have great benefits, ones that ME does not, despite the apparent lack of benefits at your clinics that you refuse to confess to. As far as the rest, sorry, I am not going to debate it with you, been there, done that.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: My therapists have great benefits, ones that ME does not, despite the apparent lack of benefits at your clinics that you refuse to confess to. As far as the rest, sorry, I am not going to debate it with you, been there, done that.

Okay, here's a benefit for you: full time therapists get a comp 90 minute massage once a month. Part timers get a comp 60 minute every 100 modality hours. What's this about benefits for your (only) part time therapists? You posted that you didn't give them benefits because they are "independent contractors". I guess we'lljust have to "take your word for everything" since you don't (won't) disclose. I'm sure you have great clinic, though.

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: Okay, here's a benefit for you: full time therapists get a comp 90 minute massage once a month. Part timers get a comp 60 minute every 100 modality hours. What's this about benefits for your (only) part time therapists? You posted that you didn't give them benefits because they are "independent contractors". I guess we'lljust have to "take your word for everything" since you don't (won't) disclose. I'm sure you have great clinic, though.

Im glad you are listening. If you know they are contractors, then why keep digging about benefits?? Do you know what a contractor is?? They get benefits, just not the ones you say they should get, even though they dont expect them, ie "contractor". again, you have employees, they work for ME not themselves, big difference. So far as free massages, big deal, you cant pay bills with that. My therapists get that and alot more money. You dont have to take my word for anything Gray. Wheather you beleive me or not does not change the facts and matters very little to me.

I have workes at massage envy charlotte,nc in the past.Mve away to VA and now working as a Dental assistant making 14.50.I want to go back to massage envy because I worked less, didnt have to get up early and had clients without doing any of the work....My base was 15.00 But my potential was more..If I was requested I made two extra an hour and depending on what precetage I was requested every two weeks my pay changed...In deed every 90 days my increased .50...With tips 10-20 sometime 100 I made great money for only working 25 hours.. Ibrought home 2100 month that is not bad considering the hours I put in...I was awesome and was often requested..The rewards are endless...I will consider doing it all over again...

I'll have given this company 3 years in February. It's great. I get do what I love (massage) and go home to my family. I don't think abut work again until my next shift. No hassel, no fuss. Why don't you go back to work @ M.E. part time, staying with the Dental Assistant job? Or any place for that matter.

Neck Massage:
Do you own your own home? Just wondering, if you are willing to share that. Years ago, I was more impressed with sums of money like that until I realized it was not part of the real world of paying my own bills and owning a home. After groceries, property taxes, and then home payments, nothing would have been left. You may, for all I know, own your own home, but I would like to know if you do or live with parents. People who live with their parents may not fully understand the value of money. My perspective certainly changed after I moved out years ago. The value of money is only as good as what you can buy with it and that is little from Massage Envy.

anonymous anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey said: Neck Massage:
Do you own your own home? Just wondering, if you are willing to share that. Years ago, I was more impressed with sums of money like that until I realized it was not part of the real world of paying my own bills and owning a home. After groceries, property taxes, and then home payments, nothing would have been left. You may, for all I know, own your own home, but I would like to know if you do or live with parents. People who live with their parents may not fully understand the value of money. My perspective certainly changed after I moved out years ago. The value of money is only as good as what you can buy with it and that is little from Massage Envy.

How about $30,000 to $40,000+ per year? ME therapists make that. That'll make a mortgage payment.

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: How about $30,000 to $40,000+ per year? ME therapists make that. That'll make a mortgage payment.

Maybe at your location, but you dont know what others make. I have heard different numbers, so its deceptive to say "ME" pays 30k-40k.

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: How about $30,000 to $40,000+ per year? ME therapists make that. That'll make a mortgage payment.

Really? Please be honest - I don't want to know the hype of earning potential - I don't want to know what I might make if I hurt myself working for M.E. or if every person I massaged requested me and every one signed a contract. What does the average M.E. employee make?

anonymous anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey said: Neck Massage:
Do you own your own home? Just wondering, if you are willing to share that. Years ago, I was more impressed with sums of money like that until I realized it was not part of the real world of paying my own bills and owning a home. After groceries, property taxes, and then home payments, nothing would have been left. You may, for all I know, own your own home, but I would like to know if you do or live with parents. People who live with their parents may not fully understand the value of money. My perspective certainly changed after I moved out years ago. The value of money is only as good as what you can buy with it and that is little from Massage Envy.

There was a story out a wk or so ago in all the local papers in Ma. and on the news that this state has the highest rate of inflation in the country. But some how I have enough money in my pocket to pay my bills and then some. I don't live at home with my parents I moved out back in Nov. because what I was making at ME was enough. It was not enough when I worked as an independent contractor. Also I live alone, not with any roommates, so the hot water bill, electricity, cable, internet etc I pay for. I don't split my bills with anyone. So just to clarify I buy enough and then some with my money not the "little" that you are saying a person can buy.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: There was a story out a wk or so ago in all the local papers in Ma. and on the news that this state has the highest rate of inflation in the country. But some how I have enough money in my pocket to pay my bills and then some. I don't live at home with my parents I moved out back in Nov. because what I was making at ME was enough. It was not enough when I worked as an independent contractor. Also I live alone, not with any roommates, so the hot water bill, electricity, cable, internet etc I pay for. I don't split my bills with anyone. So just to clarify I buy enough and then some with my money not the "little" that you are saying a person can buy.

Again, different experiences. I made plenty more as a contractor than I ever did at ME.

i heart massage in huffman, Texas said: Really? Please be honest - I don't want to know the hype of earning potential - I don't want to know what I might make if I hurt myself working for M.E. or if every person I massaged requested me and every one signed a contract. What does the average M.E. employee make?

You are correct. The money you will make has many variables. Where is the clinic located? how is it run? whats the base pay? How good are the owners?, how many hrs do you need to work to make x dollars? Whats the bonus structure? How many memberships do you need to make x dollars, requests, upgrades etc. These clinics are run so differently from each other, there is little uniformity in the operation of this concept. One clinic pays one base pay and the next pays different. Its funny, even though they all seem to have different insentives, they all boast 30k-40k+

LMT/CMT I never said my experience was like anyone else. Anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey's comment irritated me a little. Thats all, I was directing my post to him/her not anyone else.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: LMT/CMT I never said my experience was like anyone else. Anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey's comment irritated me a little. Thats all, I was directing my post to him/her not anyone else.

I undersatnd that, but you have to realize that when you tell us how great a therapist you are and that you are booked 3 months out at ME, I cant figure out why you could not make it in private practice. It just doesnt make sense to me. So when I hear you say that you make more at ME than when you worked for yourself, it does not add up.

Well I can see why it wouldn't add up to you because you don't know the numbers. Your experience was different then mine, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Mickieann10:
Maybe you are a whiz at numbers. Anyway, thank you for responding to my query.

i heart massage in huffman, Texas said: Really? Please be honest - I don't want to know the hype of earning potential - I don't want to know what I might make if I hurt myself working for M.E. or if every person I massaged requested me and every one signed a contract. What does the average M.E. employee make?

Naturally, the therapist needs to be working shifts when most clients book (it's a nights and week-ends business) and the clinic owner has to be smart in hiring and scheduling but these numbers are not unusual in Colorado and from other parts of the country I have heard from.

Pardon me, I misspoke. I should have said evenings and week-ends. Nights would not be accurate at all.

anonymous anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey said: Neck Massage:
Do you own your own home? Just wondering, if you are willing to share that. Years ago, I was more impressed with sums of money like that until I realized it was not part of the real world of paying my own bills and owning a home. After groceries, property taxes, and then home payments, nothing would have been left. You may, for all I know, own your own home, but I would like to know if you do or live with parents. People who live with their parents may not fully understand the value of money. My perspective certainly changed after I moved out years ago. The value of money is only as good as what you can buy with it and that is little from Massage Envy.

Do I live at home? Wow, if you were trying to piss me off it worked. I would love to meet you Mr. Anonymous Jersey man/woman. No, I'm not a home owner. Not because I live at home <insert a lot of profanity towards you>. I never cared about owning a home. Infact, I'm 31, have a daughter of my own, and my parents have been dead since I was 20. I wish I could meet you. I have so much I would love to say, but I'm not allowed to post. I haven't lived at home since I was 18. I may not be as old as you Mr. Grown up home owner, but, wait, who am I kidding. F you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Poor me, I like my job at the evil massage envy. I must wear diapers, live with mommy, and hate myself. We should change the name of this forum. Let's call it EVERYBODY CRIES AND WINES ABOUT MASSAGE ENVY. Everytime someone post's something positive, an arsonal of haters cry about all of the evil. No job is perfect. No private practice, no company, no co-op can solve all of life's needs. I'm sorry if this will soundb harsh, but I'm bored of the crying. M.E. makes you work hard. Oh my god, a job that expects you to work! Boo stinkin hoo. Life can be ruff.

Neck Massage in Vancouver, Washington said: Do I live at home? Wow, if you were trying to piss me off it worked. I would love to meet you Mr. Anonymous Jersey man/woman. No, I'm not a home owner. Not because I live at home <insert a lot of profanity towards you>. I never cared about owning a home. Infact, I'm 31, have a daughter of my own, and my parents have been dead since I was 20. I wish I could meet you. I have so much I would love to say, but I'm not allowed to post. I haven't lived at home since I was 18. I may not be as old as you Mr. Grown up home owner, but, wait, who am I kidding. F you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Poor me, I like my job at the evil massage envy. I must wear diapers, live with mommy, and hate myself. We should change the name of this forum. Let's call it EVERYBODY CRIES AND WINES ABOUT MASSAGE ENVY. Everytime someone post's something positive, an arsonal of haters cry about all of the evil. No job is perfect. No private practice, no company, no co-op can solve all of life's needs. I'm sorry if this will soundb harsh, but I'm bored of the crying. M.E. makes you work hard. Oh my god, a job that expects you to work! Boo stinkin hoo. Life can be ruff.

Cry? whine? Maybe you should try another forum if you dont like the negative feedback about the ME empire, anyway, well said. Another first class ME employee.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: Cry? whine? Maybe you should try another forum if you dont like the negative feedback about the ME empire, anyway, well said. Another first class ME employee.

Just because she likes the job that didn't work for you.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: Cry? whine? Maybe you should try another forum if you dont like the negative feedback about the ME empire, anyway, well said. Another first class ME employee.

What do you expect really when someone is insulted. I do remember someone insulting you, not that you deserved it by any means, and you got a little defensive and sarcastic just as neck massage was. So what makes his/her response any worse then yours was? Classic case of pot calling kettle black in my book.

And anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey: I never claimed to be a math whiz and how would you know if I was or wasn't considering I posted no numbers in that exchange with LMT/CMT. Oh and your welcome for "answering your query" even though u asked neck massage and not me, and I didn't even answer the question for him. I was just sharing my own view point on the matter.

Gray Neher in Castle Pines, Colorado said: Just because she likes the job that didn't work for you.

I dont have a problem with that, but why be nasty.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: What do you expect really when someone is insulted. I do remember someone insulting you, not that you deserved it by any means, and you got a little defensive and sarcastic just as neck massage was. So what makes his/her response any worse then yours was? Classic case of pot calling kettle black in my book.

And anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey: I never claimed to be a math whiz and how would you know if I was or wasn't considering I posted no numbers in that exchange with LMT/CMT. Oh and your welcome for "answering your query" even though u asked neck massage and not me, and I didn't even answer the question for him. I was just sharing my own view point on the matter.

I dont think Ive been as nasty as that, sorry. I can assure you that I dont take anything on this forum to heart like some do. You dont see me using F++u or calling anyone haters, or evil or crybabies.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: What do you expect really when someone is insulted. I do remember someone insulting you, not that you deserved it by any means, and you got a little defensive and sarcastic just as neck massage was. So what makes his/her response any worse then yours was? Classic case of pot calling kettle black in my book.

And anonmous in Freehold, New Jersey: I never claimed to be a math whiz and how would you know if I was or wasn't considering I posted no numbers in that exchange with LMT/CMT. Oh and your welcome for "answering your query" even though u asked neck massage and not me, and I didn't even answer the question for him. I was just sharing my own view point on the matter.

The bottom line is that nobody is forcing anyone to participate in this forum. If you are tired of the "whining" and "crying" then leave. Its funny that when negative things are brought up about ME its whining or complaining, but when its in defense of ME, its just that. We agree on one thing, there are no victums here, on either side. People choose their path and decide whats best for themselves, but sorry, where there is smolke........

Neck massage I dont think that anonymous in freehold new jersey was trying to insult you at all. I think they were trying to make a point of how expensive it is to live period and I felt they were making more of a comment about how hard it is to live on a small salary and pay your bills.

Neck Massage wrote:
M.E. makes you work hard. Oh my god, a job that expects you to work! Boo stinkin hoo. Life can be ruff.

Massage Therapist wrote:
Dont you think you deserve a decent wage for the demands that massage puts on your body and all that hard work.

LMt/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona wrote:
Its funny that when negative things are brought up about ME its whining or complaining, but when its in defense of ME, its just that.

Massage Therapist wrote: I would have to agree with this statement. I have found this to be true.

Is Mt4Union banned from this forum. I noticed they havent written anything in awhile? I enjoyed their intelligent observations.

LMT/CMT in Phoenix, Arizona said: Its funny that when negative things are brought up about ME its whining or complaining, but when its in defense of ME, its just that.

I'm not even sure what you mean. Being negative about anything is basically lacking in constructiveness, helpfulness, optimism, cooperativeness, etc. all things which are indeed complaining/whining in some extent. As far as the defense of ME, well yea it is defense. Sorry if you take it as whining and/or complaining. Its just the truth for some people outside of Arizona.

Mickieann10 in Norwood, Massachusetts said: I'm not even sure what you mean. Being negative about anything is basically lacking in constructiveness, helpfulness, optimism, cooperativeness, etc. all things which are indeed complaining/whining in some extent. As far as the defense of ME, well yea it is defense. Sorry if you take it as whining and/or complaining. Its just the truth for some people outside of Arizona.

So if I say something negetive but true about ME thats lacking constructiveness and optimism?? So far as the rest of your statement about whining and complaining, No, I dont take it that way, thats the point, so why should the ME supporters take it that way? As you go on to say, So far as the problems that have been stated here by other therapists with ME, it is also the truth for some therapists outside of Colorado and Massachuset