Massage Envy Salaries, Bonuses and Benefits.

annonymous in Sonoma County in Santa Rosa, California said: I am currently an employee of ME in Sonoma County.I too have been wondering how in the world they can get away with this nonsense of not paying us in between treatments,(and demanding that we keep the laundry going)without being sited by the CA labor Board. I plan to investigate this soon!

Despite my love of ME massages, that can't be legal!!! If you're working, you should be paid for each hour of work!!! You should talk to an attorney...maybe a group of you can pitch in to talk to one!!!!

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: Despite my love of ME massages, that can't be legal!!! If you're working, you should be paid for each hour of work!!! You should talk to an attorney...maybe a group of you can pitch in to talk to one!!!!

Hate to tell you, but it worked that way where I was in Chicago 5 yrs ago. We had to do the laundry. All that for $15 a massage. But who really cares as long as you get your massage for $39 right?

It's actually 59 for a massage, plus tip; and I will still go- it's not a problem for a consumer. I honestly don't think someone with a 6-month certificate DESERVES more than 15 an hour..plus tips makes it gravy!- but people should be paid for every hour they work. That's an employee versus management legal issue-boycotts don't work, we all still eat strawberries despite the treatment of migrant farm workers, and Wal Mart is always mobbed.. and, if you read these, not every ME does this. As others have validly pointed out- if it so bad to work there, QUIT! If they choose to work there- they'll at least get the 15 plus my tip every time I show up!! I don't hurt them- their management may. And Massage Envy-style places won't go away unless massages as a whole becomes professionalized- i.e., multiple years of college-level training like OTs and PTs and such.

Dadmike, I would like to know why it is you appear to honestly believe that all massage therapists only receive 6 months of education before they graduate. Are you asking every MT you see how long they went to school or how many continuing ed hours they have? Or did you see the ads we all did saying "You can be a massage therapist in only 6 months!" Have you done any research whatsoever into the training most massage therapists need even if they Only take the 6 month program? It's even likely that your hard earned professional title can be given to someone else in only 6 months of school. Perhaps you are uneducated yourself? You seem to push the same argument all the time. It's old and tired. Most of all, it's untrue. If you want to argue, and not seem completely uneducated while you're doing it.... Know at least Some facts about it well beforehand. But here, you just sound as if you like to put people down because your too stubborn to find facts about anything. And by the way, the world is flat. I read that somewhere....must be true.

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: It's actually 59 for a massage, plus tip; and I will still go- it's not a problem for a consumer. I honestly don't think someone with a 6-month certificate DESERVES more than 15 an hour..plus tips makes it gravy!- but people should be paid for every hour they work. That's an employee versus management legal issue-boycotts don't work, we all still eat strawberries despite the treatment of migrant farm workers, and Wal Mart is always mobbed.. and, if you read these, not every ME does this. As others have validly pointed out- if it so bad to work there, QUIT! If they choose to work there- they'll at least get the 15 plus my tip every time I show up!! I don't hurt them- their management may. And Massage Envy-style places won't go away unless massages as a whole becomes professionalized- i.e., multiple years of college-level training like OTs and PTs and such.

6 month cert? try 10 yrs of training. Thats what your therapists are missing at ME that you dont understand. As far as it being "gravy" Try doing the work. Thats what you dont seem to understand, massage therapy is specialized and many have special training, but thats the point, most clients that go to ME do not have respect for the field and dont see it that way, so a therapist making $15 per massage at ME when they use to make $30, who cares right? They see it like you do, 6 month class, some continuing ed, whats the problem? The problem is that the public obviously needs some education on this. But again, for the people that want cheap, it wont make a difference anyway because even if their therapists were "specialized" and ME went to raise prices, clients would be protesting.

Thanks for your support on this matter. I plan to look into this this coming week with the CA labor Board!

In the mean time,I have a sick feeling knowing that I have to go into work today.....

Credentials and Marketing- In MD, it is 6-9mos training after high school and you can get licensed as masseuse; private schools and Community Colleges offer the courses; unlicensed people also use the title,too; more education = same title.
After work, I'm tired, I want a massage, not a research project; If you can be a "MSM (Masters in Massage), LCCT (License Certified Clinical Therapist), or some such title, to distinguish more educated practioners it would aid marketing. It's the responsibility of the business to get their message out, not the job of the consumer to "do research", if that business expects to make the most profits possible!
I am happy to get an inexpensive but effective massage! Who wouldn't be? ME makes it simple and easy, and the massage profession is so lax about its credentials that anyone can get in! ME's pay is a SYMPTOM of a profession that hasn't established solid legal and credential standards; until the more educated members of your community band together and enforce min. Bachelor's degrees and tiered licenses, expect hookers and 6-month people to keep your wages down. If done right- credentials and prices could be impressive enough to qualify for medical insurance reimbursement. I'm sticking with ME- they do a good job,reasonable price.
They are capitalizing in a weakness in your profession, ME or no ME, and that is no crime. I've seen enough posts to know that spas and chiropractors and the OTHER massage chains treat their massage people the same or WORSE than ME.
Social workers, my profession, make far less money in states w/o tiered license laws; MD has 3 tiers, 1 for BSW, 2 for MSW; we're amongst the highest paid for social work adjusted for cost of living. You all need to do the same- until you do, why should I pay more?

PK_lmt in Elgin, Illinois said: Dadmike, I would like to know why it is you appear to honestly believe that all massage therapists only receive 6 months of education before they graduate. Are you asking every MT you see how long they went to school or how many continuing ed hours they have? Or did you see the ads we all did saying "You can be a massage therapist in only 6 months!" Have you done any research whatsoever into the training most massage therapists need even if they Only take the 6 month program? It's even likely that your hard earned professional title can be given to someone else in only 6 months of school. Perhaps you are uneducated yourself? You seem to push the same argument all the time. It's old and tired. Most of all, it's untrue. If you want to argue, and not seem completely uneducated while you're doing it.... Know at least Some facts about it well beforehand. But here, you just sound as if you like to put people down because your too stubborn to find facts about anything. And by the way, the world is flat. I read that somewhere....must be true.

Yup- I did research; in MD- 6 to 9 months to qualify for massage license, private school or community college; My profession and position- a full 60 credit Master's Degree with 2 professional internships; then an entry-level license exam; then another 2 full years of supervised practice, then an other sitting for the advanced clinical exam. And I get about 30 bucks an hour- about what a 6-month cert at ME would get, if you include the tips! Although I do have real pension and good bennies. But I didn't go into social work for money...I could make $120.00 an hour in private practive, but that quickly whittles away in office rent, self-employment taxes, insurance processing, buying own health insurance, etc., etc. Not too different from the expenses a private masseuse may have.....

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: 6 month cert? try 10 yrs of training. Thats what your therapists are missing at ME that you dont understand. As far as it being "gravy" Try doing the work. Thats what you dont seem to understand, massage therapy is specialized and many have special training, but thats the point, most clients that go to ME do not have respect for the field and dont see it that way, so a therapist making $15 per massage at ME when they use to make $30, who cares right? They see it like you do, 6 month class, some continuing ed, whats the problem? The problem is that the public obviously needs some education on this. But again, for the people that want cheap, it wont make a difference anyway because even if their therapists were "specialized" and ME went to raise prices, clients would be protesting.

PS- You got it spot on! Consumers DON'T CARE if you're underpaid! It's up to the massage industry to make consumers care by showing us WHY we would want to spend more money on you! It's called CAPITALISM!! If you want consumers to be educated, it's the professions responsibility to educate- it's called advertising, and, in, fact consumers are being educated- by big chains like ME!!

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: Yup- I did research; in MD- 6 to 9 months to qualify for massage license, private school or community college; My profession and position- a full 60 credit Master's Degree with 2 professional internships; then an entry-level license exam; then another 2 full years of supervised practice, then an other sitting for the advanced clinical exam. And I get about 30 bucks an hour- about what a 6-month cert at ME would get, if you include the tips! Although I do have real pension and good bennies. But I didn't go into social work for money...I could make $120.00 an hour in private practive, but that quickly whittles away in office rent, self-employment taxes, insurance processing, buying own health insurance, etc., etc. Not too different from the expenses a private masseuse may have.....

PS- in MD, social workers also need 40 hours of continuing education, training must be certfied by Board of Social Work Examiners, ever 2 years.

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: PS- You got it spot on! Consumers DON'T CARE if you're underpaid! It's up to the massage industry to make consumers care by showing us WHY we would want to spend more money on you! It's called CAPITALISM!! If you want consumers to be educated, it's the professions responsibility to educate- it's called advertising, and, in, fact consumers are being educated- by big chains like ME!!

They sure are being educated, as proven by your posts.

This is directly from Maryland Board of Chiropractice and Massage Examiners, the state-level legla licensing agency- you can Google it yourself!
".05 Required Education and Training.
A. Classroom Training.
(1) Of the minimum 500 hours classroom training required in Regulation .04A(7) of this chapter:
(a) At least 100 hours shall consist of:
(i) Anatomy; (ii) Physiology;
(iii) Pathology; and
(iv) Kinesiology; and

(b) The remaining 400 hours shall include a majority of hours in:

(i) Massage therapy theory;
(ii) Technique;
(iii) Supervised practice;
(iv) Professional ethics;
(v) Professional standards;
(vi) Business practices;
(vii) Health and hygiene; and
(viii) Contraindications of massage. "
Comment: 500 hours = apx. 12/5 weeks full time; 6-9months, since classes don't run 40 hours a week!!

This seems to be a pretty common standard; There is also a private organization, much like NASW for social workers, that seems to be working towards what I suggested- they offer their own credentials, and require college credit, in MD; but you only need the lower-standard State license to work- maybe they will change that!
See this link: www.massageregister.com/massage-license-requirements

More research! MD does have a tiered system- Here's a quote from the Chiro. And Massage Examiner website: "Registered Massage Practitioners may practice in a business setting such as private businesses, health clubs and spas. Registered Massage Practitioners may not practice in any health care setting (including, but not limited to, hospitals, nursing homes, clinics, doctors’ offices)."
They distinguish between Registered, which is only 500 hours to work; and Licensed, which is 500 hours plus an Associate's degree (60 credits, vs. 120 for a Bachelor's). I bet licensed people have a hard time due to the low standards set at entry level; ME and private places most likely are Registered only- 500 hours is a PATHETIC professional standard; it's only 1 semester's worth of work!!!

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: They sure are being educated, as proven by your posts.

Yep- consumers have learned that we can get reliable, decent massages from non-hookers at a decent price! Consumers win!! Overqualified snotty whiners lose!!

Johnny1- every time you go out to eat, do you ask how much cooks and wait staff are paid? Every store you go in- do you check how much the manager, cashier, and factory worker was paid prior to purchase?
Apply that standard to everything you do, and then shop only at the places that pay staff the most- that is what you are expecting consumers of your profession to do, based on this forum.
If you were to try a new cuisine- would you go and order a full price meal from every restaurant that served that cuisine, irregardless that each restaurant will vary in quality that may not reflect on the cuisine, or would you go to a generally recommended reasonably priced buffet where you could sample a bit of all the cuisine had to offer at a reasonable prices- then finally commit to one spectacular dish, if a dish that good existed? That's the best analogy I can come up with for your expectations of consumers.

You generalize, DadMike... all massage therapists do not have only massage education, especially if it's a 2nd vocation (more common than you realize). Just like social workers, we are people with varying backgrounds and skill-sets. Your point that the public needs to be educated re: massage has been noted, and in some states a tiered system of licensure exists. However, of MTs who consider massage an art as well as a "modality" or "routine", in the field for decades, some had concerns about even establishing licensure because it may become beaurocratized and regulated into oblivion, dissected into something it never should be. I have some experience working with PTs, and their training in massage is pretty brief - they'll tell you that, tho' there are some PTs who choose to specialize in manual work. However, generally they don't have the time to spend 1:1 with a client for an hour or 90 min (they treat several people at once and rely on support staff). When massage is billed in the medical system it is piecemeal - only for the body part for which therapy is prescribed. No holistic idea that a full body massage = "progress". MTs don't take english comp or humanities courses, or other elective sundries, try taking all of your core courses at once. In early 1900's PTs were called "Restoration Aides"; grew out of practicing military rehab. Now it requires a doctorate in some states. 1 of many like reasons healthcare is becoming prohibitively expensive; at one time you didn't have to have a string of letters after your name to provide care for people who needed it. Massage therapy was considered a remedy for health and rehabilitation before the advent of pharmaceuticals in this country (with no side effects) and is estabished in other countries as a medical treatment. It's also preventative. You're right, we need to improve marketing and client education. Thank heaven there are MTs willing to touch your body to help your health, please don't make light of that.

It's retail. It happens in chain (and privately owned) hair salons, too. You get a base rate of $8/hr and if you perform a massage, then you get paid your full rate. It's worse to work a full day when you only have a few appointments, because you end up making the base rate the entire time. I think the base pay is to at least give you an hourly wage in the retail setting. When you work for yourself, you don't make anything when you have no appointments. You might have the same thing happen in a spa setting, you may make more per massage, but not be paid for down time. It sometimes stinks to be in a service business.

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: None of the links worked!! I've seen people post about working for chiropractors...same or worse than ME from the posts I saw. Can't cheapen a profession that cheapens itself!! Gotta raise credentials- 500 hours is sad!- Jiffy Lube probably trains its oil changers longer!! Really- I would like to hear in SPECIFICS- such as "I know how to manipulate muscle tissue in XWZ manners to address XYZ conditions" before I'd be convinced; you know PTs and OTs have massage training as part of their COLLEGE DEGREES..and it's only PART-- it's not considered enough for a full degree.

Try 1000 hrs school, plus 10yrs worth of CEUS and training

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: None of the links worked!! I've seen people post about working for chiropractors...same or worse than ME from the posts I saw. Can't cheapen a profession that cheapens itself!! Gotta raise credentials- 500 hours is sad!- Jiffy Lube probably trains its oil changers longer!! Really- I would like to hear in SPECIFICS- such as "I know how to manipulate muscle tissue in XWZ manners to address XYZ conditions" before I'd be convinced; you know PTs and OTs have massage training as part of their COLLEGE DEGREES..and it's only PART-- it's not considered enough for a full degree.

That will do donkey

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: Try 1000 hrs school, plus 10yrs worth of CEUS and training

Oh by the way, try also having 6 yrs nursing and rehab experience and nationally certified, but at ME, still $15 for me and $39 for the hr...I mean 50 min, for you. If you had any clue the type of training some of the therapists have that I know, you would be surprised, not everyone has 5oo hrs training and if they do, they work at ME and the like, enough said. So good luck seeing therapists with that kind of knowledge at these fast food chains. No therapist I know with that much training will work for a company like ME.

Johnnyj1 - I think you might be wasting your keystrokes - the guy admitted that if he was in private practice making $120/hr., his profits would get eaten up in taxes, rent, health insurance and general overhead. He knows what private practitioners deal with. Not sure why he is on the forum, except to make digs and entertain himself. Most MTs I know work more than one job, or in several locations just to make enough money to live. He seems to think we aren't worth enough money to live because we don't hail from academia, and seems to enjoy getting under your skin in particular, so maybe if we don't say anymore, he'll go away.

Bron in Ellwood City, Pennsylvania said: Johnnyj1 - I think you might be wasting your keystrokes - the guy admitted that if he was in private practice making $120/hr., his profits would get eaten up in taxes, rent, health insurance and general overhead. He knows what private practitioners deal with. Not sure why he is on the forum, except to make digs and entertain himself. Most MTs I know work more than one job, or in several locations just to make enough money to live. He seems to think we aren't worth enough money to live because we don't hail from academia, and seems to enjoy getting under your skin in particular, so maybe if we don't say anymore, he'll go away.

Funny, I have a private practice and I do just fine, He does not know squat, thats the problem. A far as going away, dont bet on it. I have never seen a ME "customer" defend so diligently his ME, I know the deal, he is not fooling anyone, I hope the ME he owns treats therapists better than the ones I have been to. You are right though, the best thing is to ignore him, my 1 yr old is more mature than he is.

Johnnyj1 - Arizona is massage-land, culturally. Out here in PA, massage is becoming more accepted, but you guys are way ahead in terms of massage being a regular part of your clients' lives, and not just an occasional luxury, I think. So we really do have to always educate and be looking for opportunities to prove the efficacy of massage, with each client that walks in the door of our clinics. Our profession does have its challenges, overcoming another sort of image is one of them, as is evidenced in the comments here on this forum, as well as competing with turf wars and scope of practice limitations, etc., which is just part of everyone wanting their piece of the pie or trying to prevent some other group of people from getting some of their pie. In PA it has taken so long just to have a bill passed for licensure - I was sure in 2002 that it would be in place when I finished massage school - no further progress by 2004, but a massage bill was just passed this past year & now we will finally be able to apply in October of 2010. It is not as though any of us wants the "bar" to be low, but whether or not this guy realizes it, there are even those with MSWs that don't do a very good job, but their academic "credentialing" protects them and keeps people paying for their services, even if they don't benefit much. I have taken many college courses that were well worth the money, and I have also had a few where the profs were more interested in the acquisition of power, having a platform for a captive audience and drawing a salary with "great bennies". Sometimes I don't know how people get so enamored of themselves. I want to make a good living, and I want my clients to be well. And it takes time to revive a profession that painkillers, cortisone shots, and alopathic medicine dominated for several decades. Medicine is steadily recognising the effects of what we do, and it'll get better, I think.

If you are concerned about ME and similar places decreasing your wages, you have a valid concern, that is how competitive capitalism works. It DOES NOT MATTER how much training you have, if your direct competition can enter the field with only 500 hours of training! and then get paid as much as you do. My direct competition needs a full 8 years of training and exams before they can compete directly with me, and then they have to engage in public or private seniority systems. Massage is a direct service- alot less buearacracy, but then less protection for senior staff! Masseuse would not take the ME jobs or chiro jobs or spa jobs if they could muscle together to get better pay- but with such low educational standards (Avg. Bachelor's degree is apx. 2000 hours!) you all are going to have a hard, hard time- ME and such places will ALWAYS have a steady stream to hire, and they will compete. The avg. wage for a high school graduate with some post-HS education is about 8 bucks an hour nationally-- that is why new grads see 15 an hour plus tips as GOOD money!! I'm not ragging on massage in general- just those that I believe need a general education about how stringent other professions are in comparison, and what realistic wages really are. And if Johnny1 doesn't have to pay rent or taxes or laundry fees and such, I'm moving to Arizona!! If you all charge enough to live- good! If you all are worried about chain competition- organize, increase your standards, but for goodness sakes' whining and blaming customers will not help you!!

DadMike - I have never once blamed my customers. A customer who becomes a client is my best friend. I'm getting disgusted that you keep hammering on this forum and attacking the standards for our business and our intelligence. If you think it doesn't take many brains to rub a body, why do you think we need to prove anything to you? When you have graduated from a massage therapy education program and have become licensed and certified, then you can say what you will. It is what it is, for Pete's sake. Most of the therapists that work at chains do it for awhile, then find their niche, or leave the profession. If the cost for massage is too high at anyone's establishment for a client to afford, they won't put out the money. In your profession, someone already paved the way for you, or you'd be facing the same stuff. Massage Envy could stand to pay a little more for experienced therapists rather than basing the wage on the experience of a new grad from a 6 month program just out of high school. And not all of them are the same - nobody should work at a place where they do not like the conditions. I think this is what therapists are sharing here, however well or badly, along with some of the problems that are common in a chain business. In my local area, the going rate for a massage is actually what Massage Envy charges in a higher rent district 30 minutes away. It's different in a metropolitan area. To me, a "client" is different than a "consumer" in this business. I think you are far more "consumer" than client. A therapist/client relationship is more than "serve it up cheap, masseuse". This forum is for massage therapists either seeking employment with or wanting to know about Massage Envy's salary and employment information, and I suppose for self-appointed critics. So jab away. But I am off this forum after this post - I know what I need to know, and, as one poster so succinctly put it, that will do, donkey.

I'm just pointing out what the standards are, and that the entry-level standards are low, which inhibit your wages- bash me, but your anger is most effectively directed at massage schools and licensing boards- w/o those low entry standards, ME could not exsist!
Bron, you post is more sensible than most- the majority of the responses posted here are from people that DO bash the customer, complain that ME is ruining massage, and then get angry about some basic facts about why ME can be so successful, and then call me names. I didn't set a 500 hour standard, I didn't invent "hooker pose as massage" business, I didn't invite Asian immigrants to run cut-rate accupressure in malls, I didn't invent massage chairs-if you guys want ME to increase pay or go away, you have to address ALL of the above. The posts from actually ME employees are mixed here- some really like it, others don't, alot seems to depend on owner.

Bron in Ellwood City, Pennsylvania said: DadMike - I have never once blamed my customers. A customer who becomes a client is my best friend. I'm getting disgusted that you keep hammering on this forum and attacking the standards for our business and our intelligence. If you think it doesn't take many brains to rub a body, why do you think we need to prove anything to you? When you have graduated from a massage therapy education program and have become licensed and certified, then you can say what you will. It is what it is, for Pete's sake. Most of the therapists that work at chains do it for awhile, then find their niche, or leave the profession. If the cost for massage is too high at anyone's establishment for a client to afford, they won't put out the money. In your profession, someone already paved the way for you, or you'd be facing the same stuff. Massage Envy could stand to pay a little more for experienced therapists rather than basing the wage on the experience of a new grad from a 6 month program just out of high school. And not all of them are the same - nobody should work at a place where they do not like the conditions. I think this is what therapists are sharing here, however well or badly, along with some of the problems that are common in a chain business. In my local area, the going rate for a massage is actually what Massage Envy charges in a higher rent district 30 minutes away. It's different in a metropolitan area. To me, a "client" is different than a "consumer" in this business. I think you are far more "consumer" than client. A therapist/client relationship is more than "serve it up cheap, masseuse". This forum is for massage therapists either seeking employment with or wanting to know about Massage Envy's salary and employment information, and I suppose for self-appointed critics. So jab away. But I am off this forum after this post - I know what I need to know, and, as one poster so succinctly put it, that will do, don

Bron.....hate to tell you, but the attitude you see toward therapists proves the point. For the most part the people that go to these cheap places will not see the value in what they get, its about paying the least they can, to get a service, plain and simple. many that go to ME have the same attitude as you see on this forum. Therapists only go to school this long....they are not doctors....they just rub bodies....etc. The stigma of these massage parlors is still out there and a lot of people do not respect this profession or value the people in it. When you start making a certain service a novelty, people will treat it as such and ME with their fast food massage clinics hurt this industry as a whole. Do the customers see it that way?? of course not, they dont care about that, only the fact that they can get what they want cheap. The bottom line is, that if you have to spend this much time trying to get someone to see the value or understand what it takes to do this job, forget it, those are not the kind of clients you want and they should save their money and get a rub down from their cousin, wife or husband and call it a day. You wouldnt see any of my clients on this forum, but they are at a whole different level in their thinking and such. For all that ME, go for it, but for Gods sake, dont lecture me on what you think I should know about an industry that Ive been in for 10 yrs, good grief.

As a person with experience as a customer for well over 10 years, I am happy to see that you are finally getting the point- ME, and similar places, will exsist because they offer a decent and affordable service without the sex-business stigma that has sadly plagued massage. Basic captalism- business flows to those that provide the best mix of affordable and quality. Aside from name calling and customer trashing, Johnny1, and stating you've done this for 10 years, you have yet to specify why a massage from you would be any better than one from a MassageEnvy practioner. Experience doesn't always equal good- it can, but that's not always a given.
As I've said before, if your business thrives on a small niche of specially educated customers, then why care about ME?
And I spend my money there because they do offer good massage more consistently than the spas and fancy offices I have been to-they also have high turnover- and you cant' really trust newspaper ads to find legal massage.
It's your industry- you all need to do something to clean up its' immage or the image won't change!!

Understand I differentiate from the posters here: a very small group actually works for ME, and some like it, some hate it, some report exploitation- for those that hate it, they should leave or form a union or something; for those that are exploited, they should contact an attorney.
The other posters are private practitioners that are bemoaning the possible cutting of income ME and other chains represent due to their pay rates. My posts are really directed more towards them- ME's pay rate is a SYMPTOM of overall weak professional standards- see my posts on licensing and such- mixed with social stigma; But for whatever reason even when someone acknowledges the truth to this, they still have to bash me! Which then makes me believe they are arrogant whiners who really don't want to address the real problems plagueing the massage industry.

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: Understand I differentiate from the posters here: a very small group actually works for ME, and some like it, some hate it, some report exploitation- for those that hate it, they should leave or form a union or something; for those that are exploited, they should contact an attorney.
The other posters are private practitioners that are bemoaning the possible cutting of income ME and other chains represent due to their pay rates. My posts are really directed more towards them- ME's pay rate is a SYMPTOM of overall weak professional standards- see my posts on licensing and such- mixed with social stigma; But for whatever reason even when someone acknowledges the truth to this, they still have to bash me! Which then makes me believe they are arrogant whiners who really don't want to address the real problems plagueing the massage industry.

All BS sorry

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: All BS sorry

Bashing again! If I'm wrong, explain how the standards of your profession are high, reflected in the reality of the laws of the US, and show me a page of massage ads that don't include hookers. Not bashing massage- the BS here is your refusal to admit to and confront those issues. I geuss bashing the messenger is easier!! Good thing you got your niche.

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: Bashing again! If I'm wrong, explain how the standards of your profession are high, reflected in the reality of the laws of the US, and show me a page of massage ads that don't include hookers. Not bashing massage- the BS here is your refusal to admit to and confront those issues. I geuss bashing the messenger is easier!! Good thing you got your niche.

True, it is a good thing I have my niche....and it isnt people like you.

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: True, it is a good thing I have my niche....and it isnt people like you.

Absolutely, bro! Too bad sensible, realistic people that can quote facts with appropriate links aren't your type, but hey... it all makes the world go round!! I think fact-based logic was probably in training hour 1001....

Dadmike, The standards in Illinois must be much higher for social workers I think. If we all based social workers off of your rantings, I would be amazed if there was still a calling for the profession. The social workers I know, ( all two of them) would never post the types of things you are. You must have some severe love of ME to continue posting on this thread. Seems to me, this thread originally started by asking what the payscale and benefits are while working at ME. Do you work at ME? Own one? No? Your a consumer. Realistically, you've got no insight for this thread, but you continue to rant about what we should all do about the problems. Your posts are not kind, and definately not helpful. As a "social worker" I'd think you would be a lot more understanding and have a lot less of the elitist attitude where everyone is wrong but you. Grow up.
-- For those interested in a career or stepping stone at Massage Envy, go to your local ME, get an application. Ask all the questions you can think of, and read the fine print. And watch out for disgruntled social workers.

Hmmm...I've said that: you can enter massage profession with only 500 hours training, and verified that via links to state agencies; I've noted 500 hours is not alot- you all have acknowledged that,too, by noting you have gone on for more training; I've noted that hookers have tainted the massage profession- others have acknowledged that on this site; and I've noted that ME succeeds because it takes advantage of item 1, and protects customers from item 2; Why are you so upset you must personally attack?

First off, upset is something that I'm not. Amused and confused, sure. I'm amused and confused because a "social worker" is trying so hard to upset a lot of people. The very fact that you continue to post about hours needed, prostitution, and ME's low cost of services sort of shows what kind of person you are. I would bet that almost every MT out there knows the troubles we all share. So you come along just to stir the pot a bit more and create aggrivation. All you have done is restated facts that we are all well aware of. You like to instigate, I get it. My 5 year old does the same. What did bother me in a previous post is how you said we only need 500 hours to get certified. While that is true in some places, it is far from the truth in others. You lumped all MTs into that one. Which is when I suggested you do some research about your arguments, or continue to look foolish. Obviously, you dont care about that. But I can not honestly understand why you are posting here at all. You are a consumer, you don't care about the therapist that works on you. How does any of this concern you at all?

You should be happy a consumer cares about your profession! Isn't it concerned consumers that drive a business? If a customer has a viewpoint that differs from yours, does a wise business person dismiss it and denigrate the poster, or listen to see if it can aid their business model? If everyone on this site agrees to the challenges the massage profession faces- which many have not- I've been posting here for quite some time now- then why I am attacked? My initial posts were that ME is providing an affordable, decent service in a market that is difficult for consumers to navigate. Since so many are so upset about ME, I've suggested valid ways to address the issue- even if ME shut down tomorrow, something similar would pop up! And check the state listings- I posted a link- most states only require 500 hours to register; many require no license at all. I keep posting because I'm shocked at the lack of respect that is shown to a customer who is only pointing out why I like ME, and pointing out the market forces that ensure its continued existence.

A few things. I did not denigrate that poster... Did that to yourself. I'm all ears for new ideas and constructive criticism. The point I am trying to help you see is that you are saying the same things over and over. Your shocked at the lack of respect? You get what you give, and you give anyone who disagrees with you a hard time. Some of your ideas I have no problem with, but then you get redundant. We all see your ideas. Reposting them doesn't change them. Also, I I don't believe ice said much about ME. Your a consumer, good for you. My problem is your confrontational ways of speaking. You seem like a bully. I don't like bullies. Simple as that. I defend my profession because I love what I do. I'm tired of arguing with you because neither of us will agree with the other. Not going to post on this one again, not even going to check what nutty self absorbed thing you'll say next. Maybe you should go back to school to learn how to be kind and supportive. It IS your job to help people. You're terrible at it. Your attitude screams " im better than you" That attitude is so disgusting. I hope you treat people you see on a day to day basis better than your foolish rantings on here. Good day sir.

PK_lmt in Elgin, Illinois said: A few things. I did not denigrate that poster... Did that to yourself. I'm all ears for new ideas and constructive criticism. The point I am trying to help you see is that you are saying the same things over and over. Your shocked at the lack of respect? You get what you give, and you give anyone who disagrees with you a hard time. Some of your ideas I have no problem with, but then you get redundant. We all see your ideas. Reposting them doesn't change them. Also, I I don't believe ice said much about ME. Your a consumer, good for you. My problem is your confrontational ways of speaking. You seem like a bully. I don't like bullies. Simple as that. I defend my profession because I love what I do. I'm tired of arguing with you because neither of us will agree with the other. Not going to post on this one again, not even going to celf absorbed thing you'll say next. Maybe you should go back to school to learn how to be kind and supportive. It IS your job to help people. You're terrible at it. Your attitude screams " im better than you" That attitude is so disgusting. I hope you treat people you see on a day to day basis better than your foolish rantings on here. Good day sir.

You are wasting your time. We are suppose to listen to "clients" so that we learn about the industry, as some here suggest. I would suggest that some people do the same and listen to the people that actually work in this field and have experience. Just because you are a client, does not mean you know the craft anymore than just because I fly a lot, it does not mean I can fly the plane or tell the pilot how to do his job. Unfortunately, there are many like Mr. mike out there that think they have the answers and think they are telling us things that ewe dont already know. As I always say, if they like ME, go for it. You wont find hookers there, but its not like they have not had their problems with sexual assault cases or unethical behavior.

PK_lmt in Elgin, Illinois said: A few things. I did not denigrate that poster... Did that to yourself. I'm all ears for new ideas and constructive criticism. The point I am trying to help you see is that you are saying the same things over and over. Your shocked at the lack of respect? You get what you give, and you give anyone who disagrees with you a hard time. Some of your ideas I have no problem with, but then you get redundant. We all see your ideas. Reposting them doesn't change them. Also, I I don't believe ice said much about ME. Your a consumer, good for you. My problem is your confrontational ways of speaking. You seem like a bully. I don't like bullies. Simple as that. I defend my profession because I love what I do. I'm tired of arguing with you because neither of us will agree with the other. Not going to post on this one again, not even going to check what nutty self absorbed thing you'll say next. Maybe you should go back to school to learn how to be kind and supportive. It IS your job to help people. You're terrible at it. Your attitude screams " im better than you" That attitude is so disgusting. I hope you treat people you see on a day to day basis better than your foolish rantings on here. Good day sir.

BTW, could not have said it better.

I just find it odd that so many- not all- of the posters here do agree that I make valid points, but get so angry about them they have to attack me. The most effective form of help isn't making people feel good about problems- it's confronting their denial and inspiring action, even if it upsets them. I have no problem repeating my points until someone listens. It's difficult to be a massage consumer, as shown by your frankly arrogant attitude towards someone who is pointing out the reality of problems in massage- I still hold out hope that some day someone will respond with positive ways to address these issues instead of bashing ME. My initial posts were in response to people bashing ME, and then insulting customers that choose to go there. As I've learned from years of court testimony (part of my particular job as a govt social worker) if the defense can't attack the statements based on fact, they attack the personal qualities of the witness!!

PS- go look at the "where's the work?" site here, and complain that you'll only make 15 plus tips after only 500 hours training, or go on the OT and PT and physican/nurse/social work/pyschologist sites and complain that's all you'll make as a skilled professional after 500 hours; even the licensed level in MD (MD has 2 levels- registered for 500 hrs, licensed for 60 credits + 500 hours), is just an Associate's degree. Massage does not exist in a vacuum...if you all are able to make more at it, great!, but don't bash ME or places like it- given the entry-level education and the difficulty it is for consumers to locate a good LEGAL practioner, ME does a good service and will probably do alot to clean up massage's image for more mainstream accepatance.

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: BTW, could not have said it better.

BRAVA, PKlmt in Elgin, IL! Could not have said it better either. Thank you so much for posting.
Johnny, I wasn't lecturing you, only saying that AZ folks are more familiar w/ benefits of massage than in PA because I believe it's been a presence there longer, so we (I & other PA MTs) need to give more "intro" type information to our clients - we encounter many "new to massage" clients.
DadMike, your comments supporting Massage Envy have been made, and by repeating them you encourage people to have a reduced tolerance for your posts. At this point, this forum is no longer for you, even tho' I know your right to post. We have all been edified by the posts, but you've gone beyond constructive advice and your posts now don't reflect the educaton and experience you report having, but more a need to be preaching from a bully-pulpit. If you aren't just "having fun" and really care about this profession, open a career coaching business, or go teach business in a massage school curriculum. That might fill your need to straighten this all out and get you some respect.

Well, I still have to wonder why the anger isn't vented towards the responsible parties who set the entry-level standards and don't enforce laws; but toward myself with very personal attacks? A forum is a discussion, and a valid forum holds viewpoints from many perspectives. The fact that I've inspired so much discussion and debate is very satsifying. No one has directly disputed any factual points I've made.
This forum started as "what are salaries at ME" and turned into "trash ME and its customers as hard as you can" before I even posted; I'm glad my posts have been able to re-focus on WHY ME is able to be a successful business, and given readers ideas on which issues they need to confront if they wish places like ME would either pay more or go out of business.

DadMike in Baltimore, Maryland said: Well, I still have to wonder why the anger isn't vented towards the responsible parties who set the entry-level standards and don't enforce laws; but toward myself with very personal attacks? A forum is a discussion, and a valid forum holds viewpoints from many perspectives. The fact that I've inspired so much discussion and debate is very satsifying. No one has directly disputed any factual points I've made.
This forum started as "what are salaries at ME" and turned into "trash ME and its customers as hard as you can" before I even posted; I'm glad my posts have been able to re-focus on WHY ME is able to be a successful business, and given readers ideas on which issues they need to confront if they wish places like ME would either pay more or go out of business.

Nobody has disputed your facts Mike because its not worth the energy. Plenty of facts have been stated, but you dont or wont understand. Again, I think its funny that you refer to therapists as entry level and in need of education from you, but as someone who has never worked in this field nor has any idea of the training a lot of therapists have, what makes you think that we need your insight? I work as a therapist, I also worked as a manager at ME, I think I know where both stand better than you. By your posts, I have to tell you that you do not have a good understanding of this field and what it takes to do this job. I dont tell you how to be a social worker and I have dealt with plenty of them in my life in past jobs also but it does not make me an expert. You come here an d antagonize and bait people, is that what you are trained to do in your job? Is that how you help people? I would suggest you spend more time on your craft and leave the massage to people that have the training and understanding.

OK, this appeared in my email inbox JUST now, after my last post about an hour ago. It's 10:30 AM on a Tuesday morning, EST, same time it is in MD. I'm not trashing you, but I am calling you to accountability to your own job, and it appears as though, if as you say, you are a full time MSW working in a government job, you may be using your worktime to post on this forum. I've worked in state institutions where people utilized email during worktime for personal purposes while receiving pay for work, cheating both those they serve and those paying their salaries. It is inexcusable, and you should be disciplined. When that salary is being paid by taxpayers, or by any employer it is an inappropriate use of the time you are being paid for with yor extensive skills and adherance to a professional standard. This is not trashing you, it is observation that it doesn't take a having master's degree to see. Thanks for your valuable advice, now here is a thought: if you have so much down-time, maybe the government should reduce your hours - the standards at ME should be applied to you - if you don't work, you shouldn't be paid. I am at home, and a client cancelled her appointment, so I don't make money. You're at work and playing on the internet? Unethical.

johnnyj1 in Phoenix, Arizona said: Nobody has disputed your facts Mike because its not worth the energy. Plenty of facts have been stated, but you dont or wont understand. Again, I think its funny that you refer to therapists as entry level and in need of education from you, but as someone who has never worked in this field nor has any idea of the training a lot of therapists have, what makes you think that we need your insight? I work as a therapist, I also worked as a manager at ME, I think I know where both stand better than you. By your posts, I have to tell you that you do not have a good understanding of this field and what it takes to do this job. I dont tell you how to be a social worker and I have dealt with plenty of them in my life in past jobs also but it does not make me an expert. You come here an d antagonize and bait people, is that what you are trained to do in your job? Is that how you help people? I would suggest you spend more time on your craft and leave the massage to people that have the training and understanding.

Agreed, Johnny. Also, Mike has had his FORERUNNERS pave his way to the standards in his field, because he has revealed what "hoops" he's had to jump through. If he has never been an entrepreneur of any kind, if his P.O.V. is only from his stated experience, the advice is academic, and his version of capitalism is not based on HIS reality, but what he theorizes. He is advising us to do something he most likely has not had to initiate. While raised standards are probably what will happen in time, due to what is happening now, Mike's advice is not solely Mike's idea - already being undertaken in professional organizations like AMTA, ABMP, etc. I'm not angry, are you? Just frustrated with reading "see what I've done for you" repeatedly from Mike (and based on the times of his posts, he might be posting at his govt job: THAT is something to be angry about, if you're a taxpayer). Each day we learn something old.

No BRON, Im not angry, but it is irritating to here from people that think they know this industry. Especially when it comes from ME clients. It really shows how ME hurts this profession. They perpetuate the novelty status of this industry and draw people like Mike that all of a sudden are experts because they lay on a table once a month. As Ive stated before, the clients I have are on a whole different plane so its just another eye opener as to the kind of people and logic out there that frequent these fast food massage franchises. Its a reminder as to the damage that ME does to this field and the sad standards that are being accepted by their clients. Thats why arguing with Mike and people like him is a waste, they want cheap and thats it. He has talked about prostitution and asian massage parlors and his experiences, well, I have not had as much trouble as he seems to have had. In fact I dont know anyone who has had as much trouble as he seems to have had. Its just disgusting to see where this industry is compared to when I graduated 10 yrs ago, ..sad and judging from Mike, the Social Work field could use some tweaking of its own