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AhnTrio in Washington, District of Columbia

91 months ago

Recruiter in TX in Plano, Texas said: I am a recruiter, and I am totally appalled by the situation that has been described here.
One of the things that I always do is to make sure any offer is given to a candidate IN WRITING - ALWAYS!!! It is the best way to protect both the candidate, agency and the end employer to make sure there is never a miscommunication. (Sounds like your situation is more than a miscommunication...it makes me sick.)

Anyway, good luck - I hope you get what you deserve. Also, hopefully this agency and employer will take a strong hard look at their offer process so something like this will never happen again.

By the way, I must say it really ticks me off too, on a professional level, because it most recruiters are professional, but there are enough bad apples in the bunch to give us all a bad name.

I won't completely disagree with you, but I have 25 years of experience in the law firm industry (where recruiters are used almost exclusively by the firms): Many of your colleagues are doing this for a while, but not forever. Their committment to us - poor saps looking for a job - is often lacking, and that is hard to accept. You may be a true pro, but try pretending to be someone job-seeking and contact another recruiter. I think you'll experience what many of us compain about.

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David in Tampa, Florida

91 months ago

I am also a recruiter and agree with Charles. Evil Otto, you should never have put in your notice without getting the terms of your compensation in writing -- bottom line. If you were selling your house would you accept a verbal offer? I didn't think so why do it with your career.

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SS in Frisco, Texas

90 months ago

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. When they were telling me about the 401k that was offered, my jaw went through the floor; it was the best I'd ever heard about. I even took a lower salary than was initially discussed because of it. Come to find out when I went to sign up for it after a month, that what I had been told was not true, and indeed, could not POSSIBLY have been true (because of the tax laws that cover it.)

The difference in the amount of money here is middle five figures over five years. When I called them about it, they confirmed that that was what they had told me, but would not say where they got that information from (and our local HR person denied telling them the same thing that they told me.) Also, as it turns out, the account rep that had been working with my current employer left the Judge Group abruptly after I started calling them.

So there's two possibilities: either they're grossly incompetent in an area that they should be competent in (since they deal with benefit packages every day) or they lied to me about the 401k to get me to take the job. Oh, and did I mention there's nothing about the deal in writing, and no emails either? I did manage to get the recruiter to confirm the figures that she told me initially (that turned out to be pure fiction.)

So I get referred to their corporate counsel. She's since stopped returning my calls after she said she would speak with the branch manager locally (whom I've spoken with as well.) I just left her a message requesting a return call or I would be sending a registered letter to the CEO explaining the situation and detailing her attempts to ignore me.

Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

Recruiters lie all the time. The turnover rate in the industry is enormous.

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SS in Frisco, Texas

90 months ago

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: Thanks JF. I appreciate your support.

I just wish there were something more effective I could do about the situation. I know the AG's office is inundated with this stuff and can't help but probably not give this its full attention. I wish there were lawyers out there who were able to take this case on spec or pro bono, but I can't blame people for not wanting to take it on, since there's not a lot of precedent or law to support my position. That's the real problem here. When I get back from my vacation (Aruba-bound!) I'm thinking about composing a pointed letter to my state congresscritter.

Other than recruiters that lie .... be very careful of Executive Professional resume' writing services. Paid good money to one in Florida - Career Services - they did not complete the research in 5 months. It was agreed that the research should be completed & letters out no later than 6 wks maximum. No refunds for their failure either. They did fire the research person but as a job seeker - unemployed - the whole purpose was to get a huge jump start up front and prevent my current hardship situation. Hardship on myself and my young child... I did my part 100% beyond agreed amounts and even supplied leads when they failed. Career Services of Orlando, Florida is at least as bad as your experience.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

90 months ago

Beth in Willisburg, Kentucky said: Sorry to hear of your experience.
I try to get all promises and claims before accepting employment IN WRITING. If the employer is hesitant or unwilling to provide you with such documentation, there is good reason to suspect they are inflating the job perks to persuade you to sign on with them.

I requested a written copy of my job offer, and was told that I would receive it in the mail along with other information from my new employer. Said mail did not arrive before my start date. On my first day, my new employer told me they knew nothing about it, and had not been asked to send something out.

I suppose my new employer might be feigning ignorance, but rather than jeopardize my new job, I elected to start working.

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Bubba In Raleigh

90 months ago

Couple points.

1. Most cities television stations have trouble shooters who can do stories on bad business practices and yes, recruiters are coming up on the radar for bad business practices these days. Remember that the journalist has their adgenda just as you do but if you can get them to think it's their idea and see the bigger picture - just how many folks are affected they might run with the story.

2. Most recruting companies are nothing more or less than a franchised business opportunity. With the rapid growth in this segment of franchising the common "due diligence" by the seller of the franchise is what's called "3 day waiting period for the check to clear". If the franchise payment clears they're qualified to buy a franchise and operate. Now the old line big name fast food companies learned a long time ago that is a recipe for problems.

3. If you find a company practicing in violation of a state's business opportunities laws - get an attorney. In NC business opportunities violations have a treble damage admendment. That's where all damages are tripled.

4. If you file a compliant with the Consumer Fraud Division of your states AG office then also file one with the state Dept of Labor. If you don't like one doctor doing a rectal exam imagine two at the same time looking side by side.

5. Now before you file any compliant make a few courtesy calls with each agency. Grease the skids folks. Strategically drop some ideas in some laps if you get the drift.

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Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts

90 months ago

Bubba In Raleigh said: Couple points.

1. Been down that route, had no takers, unfortunately.

2. That sounds likely. Sadly, I don't think it helps in my case.

3. Unfortunately, all the lawyers I've spoken to have wanted a $1k retainer up front, and I just don't have the funds. I've spoken with legal aid, and they basically laughed at me (which I don't really blame them for.) Employment lawyers don't generally take cases on spec, in my experience.

4. I've spoken with the Dept. of Labor, and they unfortunately don't have any jurisdiction here (since I don't have an employer-employee relationship with Judge).

5. I've spoken with every agency I can think of already. All of them referred me back to the AG's office of consumer protection. They have my complaint, but unfortunately have not reviewed it as of yet.

I'm about to call the PA BBB (that's where Judge has its HQ) to find out why my complaint doesn't appear to exist when you search for Judge.

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robert1 in conshohocken, Pennsylvania

90 months ago

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: 1. Been down that route, had no takers, unfortunately.

2. That sounds likely. Sadly, I don't think it helps in my case.

3. Unfortunately, all the lawyers I've spoken to have wanted a $1k retainer up front, and I just don't have the funds. I've spoken with legal aid, and they basically laughed at me (which I don't really blame them for.) Employment lawyers don't generally take cases on spec, in my experience.

4. I've spoken with the Dept. of Labor, and they unfortunately don't have any jurisdiction here (since I don't have an employer-employee relationship with Judge).

5. I've spoken with every agency I can think of already. All of them referred me back to the AG's office of consumer protection. They have my complaint, but unfortunately have not reviewed it as of yet.

I'm about to call the PA BBB (that's where Judge has its HQ) to find out why my complaint doesn't appear to exist when you search for Judge.

I know this company very well, we should talk offline.

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Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts

90 months ago

robert1, please contact me at zburnham (at) gmail (dot) com . (Email obfuscated to avoid the spambots.)

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Tim B.

89 months ago

do you know how back asswords they are. They tend to pull managers they have made $$$$ with and hire them on staff, in-house, eliminating that flow of business, what morons. And wait til the goofy nephew takes over, he isn't qualified to sell Avon door to door.
Have another one MJ, on the house

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Career Services of Orlando, Florida in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

WATCH OUT! Go to the Better Business Bureau of Orlando.
I can't express this WATCH OUT enough. They will try to cover themselves. They will lie to do so. Do NOT believe their excuses or other comments.

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Evil Otto in Bedford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

I've already gone to the PA BBB (Judge is based there), and my problem happened with the office in Boston, so the Orlando BBB would probably not be much help. The PA BBB has finally accepted that my complaint isn't an employment issue, so they've entered it and sent notification to Judge, for all the good that will do.

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Career Services of Orlando, Florida in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

Evil Otto in Bedford, Massachusetts said: I've already gone to the PA BBB (Judge is based there), and my problem happened with the office in Boston, so the Orlando BBB would probably not be much help. The PA BBB has finally accepted that my complaint isn't an employment issue, so they've entered it and sent notification to Judge, for all the good that will do.

Recently had a nightmare experience with Career Services of Orlando, Florida. Reported them at length to the BBB. Career Services, although they know 110% that they are at error... hey they even fired the research dept which caused much of the problem!....if the company decideds not to resolve the complaint the complaint will stay on the BBB records for 3 yrs. ....but I did not receive any refund in any portion from these dishonest scammers. They agreed to do xyz between Jan 1 and Feb 14. On May 31 it still wasnt' done. Duh. On a job search that's a huge, huge problems to delay many months.

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Flee- Career Services of Orlando, FL in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

David in Tampa, Florida said: I am also a recruiter and agree with Charles. Evil Otto, you should never have put in your notice without getting the terms of your compensation in writing -- bottom line. If you were selling your house would you accept a verbal offer? I didn't think so why do it with your career.

Although it is the ideal practice... if you don't have a current job to to Group massive downsizing of the entire dept. you must move forward and hope.

In addition, whether he got the info as needed in writing or not, THE JUDGE GROUP LIED in the representation of the offer. That's the point. They lied and lied again with HUGE financial consequences for the canidate.

As a whole in % there are a rare few recruiters who could care less about the canidate. Most - and I mean a huge # of most could not care less how much time the canidate spends or how much money is out layed for the opportunity to chat about a job. Pitiful.

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Flee- Career Services of Orlando, FL in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

Any one looking for a job should be aware:

1. Recruiters only make their money when someone is placed.
They do not care about the canidate. This is strictly a sales (old school stereo type of sales) type transaction.

2. It's a transaction for the recruiter.

3. No matter how nice they are it's a transaction. Don't expect a committed business - friendship... unless you payed them up front for an independant search on your behalf.

4. Recruiters only have a few job openings in their hands at any moment to fill. Some recruiters only have 1 - 2 - 3 in any field or job title.

5. Since a recruiter only has a couple of jobs you could remotely qualify for, YOU MUST USE MULTIPLE RECRUITERS.

6. YOU MUST USE MULTIPLE RECRUITERS.
Unless you are paying upfront for a service to look for a specific job for you. Most recruiters are paid by the company who wants the canidate.

7. MOST RECRUITERS ARE PAID BY THE COMPANY WHO WANTS THE CANIDATE.

8. FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL. WHO'S PAYING? THAT'S WERE A RECRUITERS COMMITTMENT IS.... they are only committed to you the canidate if they think YOU and only YOU will win the job.

9. Recruiters will offer several canidates to the same job just in case one doesn't work out the other might. They increase the % of odds of getting paid for the job placement completion.

10. If a Recruiter sends you through the interview process and some other person gets the job that they didn't send.... the Recruiter has done tons of work for NO PAY.

11. When you follow the money trail and the pay check.... well.... leads to lots of un-caring & couldn't care less recruiters. Assume they don't care about you and the SMILE through it to get the job offer.

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Flee- Career Services of Orlando, FL in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. .....Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

Wish you well. I've had many experiences in the last few years per IT industy "experiments" and then downsizings. Recruiters rarely care and are not on your side. Their only purpose is to keep their own job if they aren't making quota and to make a pay check as most are paid 100% commission. Not surprised at the huge lies. Very sorry to hear they trapped you.

and... your right... when you're unemployed you do the best you can and then take a job out of financial necessity. As the calculations of financial loss below the amount you were told are well...$up there... I hope there is some way you can continue to look for a different job. Use that job to keep you financially afloat and move on. It's easier to get a job when you're already employed... as you well know. I've been lied to so many times or lead down a waste of my time path it's rediculous. Good Luck.

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Flee- Career Services of Orlando, FL in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. When they were telling me about the 401k that was offered, my jaw went through the floor; it was the best I'd ever heard about. I even took a lower salary than was initially discussed because of it. .....

Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

P.S. "grossly incompetent" is most likely the best statement. I'd bet on it that the person who told you the $ was not knowledgeable in the field of about 401K, benefits and financials. Many recruiters have HS education (not all but many). The #1 requirement for becoming a recruiter is Sales ability and Ability to live on $0. pay for 6+ months. At 6 months you either get to stay or go. Their living funds are drained by that time too. It's a tough job to get off the ground. If they succeed. They can earn very good money if they are successful, however, for every 1 successful one there are 100's (if not 1000's) who failed.
I know, I've spoken to several per their calls asking me if I'd been interested in becoming a recruiter.

Not a good scenario for the canidates who are relying on them for a new Career-Job referral!

Looking for work myself after a 45 person corporate downsizing. The executives (Pres., VP, Financial) made obvious bad decisions. They stayed. People under them were cut. The President is now a VP on the Board....probably a agreed interum job while he seeks a replacement job at another company. At least HE has a job after he made vast mistakes along with the VP of Sales. 45 of us in several depts don't.

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Flee- Career Services of Orlando, FL in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: I call them like I see them.

And it's not "desperation to work" it's "I have a responsibility to feed my family". And my current employer isn't the problem (as a matter of fact, I just got a raise and a promotion in light of my increased job duties). The problem is that a recruiter lied to me, and deny it all you want, a significant portion of recruiters out there are lying scum. Not all, but some.

If you put "due diligence" on a scale against "eating", guess which one wins.

I agree with you completely. People who are working or who have never been downsized are very quick to make comments with the 'ideal' as their base. Let them go from doing well to losing everything or struggling for food or risk or or losing a home... and the list goes on...

Pious comments by Recruiters is not helpful. The recruiter you delt with lied & lied & lied repeatedly to you during your initial interview until your employment.

I'm not into the celebrity thing but legally those tabloids often lie. Only those celebs who have taken them to court have found any relief and protection in their future. Lies cost them money...just as it did you. Those celebs who went to court & obviously won are now rarely in those trash papers. Legal action did work.

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David in Tampa, Florida

89 months ago

Flee, to respond your "insightful" advice:

Yes, most recruiters only make thier money once they place someone. However, most of the time they provide a guarantee with their client that the person they place will stay with the company for a set amount of time, usually 90 days. Therefore it does me no good to decieve someone into taking a position, I will not only lose my commission but most likley a client. Some of my best relationships are with candidates that I never placed, but was able to offer advice, or a lead to a company I can't work with, etc. and guess what? Sometimes it pays off for me, sometimes it doesn't but thats the name of the game and I have met many great people playing it. You say "No matter how nice they are it's a transaction. Don't expect a committed business - friendship... unless you payed them up front for an independant search on your behalf." Don't EVER pay a recruiter to work for you! That is the true scam, guess what those guys do?-- blast your resume to recruiters who work on a contingent basis! "Recruiters will offer several canidates to the same job just in case one doesn't work out the other might. They increase the % of odds of getting paid for the job placement completion." Does anyone ever advise putting all thier eggs in one basket? If I meet 3 qualified candidates for a position that I'm working on, why would I not submit them? Because Flee in Frisco called me first? You SHOULD meet with multiple recruiters, but if you meet with too many, you run a higher risk of double submiting yourself to the same company, which makes everyone look bad!
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the Judge Group. Although I stand by my original statement that everything should have been in writing (with that you have at least a chance at legal action), it is still no excuse to misinform a candiate.
But Flee, your arguments are weak and you are clearly ill informed. I feel sorry for anyone who takes your advice to heart.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

David in Tampa, Florida said: Yes, most recruiters only make thier money once they place someone. However, most of the time they provide a guarantee with their client that the person they place will stay with the company for a set amount of time, usually 90 days. Therefore it does me no good to decieve someone into taking a position, I will not only lose my commission but most likley a client.

How do you figure? You have to remember that job candidates are at a HUGE disadvantage in this situation. I was faced with the option of quitting my job because someone that no longer had anything to do with the company or myself lied to me. My employer didn't lie to me. I needed the job. I kept working there. The recruiter got paid. (Hell, I didn't even find out the depth of the lie until I'd been there five months.) And my company will probably work with them again; they got a valuable employee out of the deal (he said trying not to sound egotistical.) Who loses here, except me? There are no negative repercussions to Judge for this action. They fired the sales rep, oh well, hire another, they're disposable, let's go screw the next guy.
David in Tampa, Florida said: Does anyone ever advise putting all thier eggs in one basket? If I meet 3 qualified candidates for a position that I'm working on, why would I not submit them?
Do you tell each of them that they're the only one you're sending there? No? Not shocked.
David in Tampa, Florida said: You SHOULD meet with multiple recruiters, but if you meet with too many, you run a higher risk of double submiting yourself to the same company, which makes everyone look bad!
Well if the recruiters would TELL the candidates what companies they're being submitted to, AND not submit a resume without checking with the candidate first, that could be avoided. Until then, multiple submissions is the recruiter's fault.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

David in Tampa, Florida said:
But Flee, your arguments are weak and you are clearly ill informed. I feel sorry for anyone who takes your advice to heart.
From where I'm sitting, he's right on the money. David, you're so far in denial about the truth of the situation that you're starting to believe your own publicity.

Let's cut to the chase.

Recruiters exist because companies are too lazy/cheap/incompetent to find qualified candidates themselves. The actual work of recruiting can be done by someone who didn't finish the tenth grade. The ones who try hard, are honest, and try to do the right thing find themselves utterly destroyed by their less ethical competitors.

A candidate is a paycheck. Not a person, not an asset, just a means to an end. Recruiters will waste a candidate's entire day on an 'intake interview' just to pad their database numbers, and then let the candidate know that the position they'd just called them in on is filled (IF there was ever a position to begin with.)

The only defense that a candidate has is caveat emptor. Treat them like used car salesmen; nothing they say is the truth until they can prove it in writing. Use them like they use us. Play one off the other to make them insane and then burn the guy who doesn't work the hardest. If you're working with recruiters while still at your current job - DO NOT TAKE ANY NONSENSE FROM THEM WHATSOEVER. If you can afford to wait for the right job to come along, don't even return their calls if they don't do EXACTLY what you ask. Demand job descriptions in writing on the FIRST CONTACT. If they don't have a specific open position in their hands RIGHT THAT SECOND, HANG UP.

I guess I've finally had enough. Nobody I know has ever had a GOOD experience with one of these 'people'. Personally, I'd like to see them outlawed or regulated into nonexistence.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

Open letter to recruiters reading this thread:

Here are some things you can do to avoid going to the special circle of Hell currently reserved for you:

1. DON'T WASTE PEOPLE'S TIME. If you don't have a specific position in mind, SAY SO in the first minute of the phone conversation or first paragraph of the email. If that hamstrings what you're doing, you should change your strategy. If a candidate is interested in your services despite the lack of a specific position, he/she will respond.

2. Provide proof of EVERYTHING you say in writing, either by fax, postal mail, or email. If you're not willing to put something in writing, it should never enter into the discussion.

3. Tell the candidates what company you represent. I don't give a flying whatsit about 'client confidential' positions. If you tell a candidate who you're working on behalf of, and they get submitted multiple times, that's on them. Personally, I'm pretty sure that multiple submissions only makes the recruiter look worse, since that recruiter doesn't have anything new to show the client, Most client companies will realize that job seekers will do anything and everything to get the resume in front of them, and won't hold multiple copies against them.

4. DO NOT LIE. If you're not 100% sure what's coming out of your mouth is the (verifiable) truth, DON'T SAY IT.

5. Don't try to turn a square peg into a round one. If the job req requires skills that aren't on someone's resume, well, that's their problem for not listing them. I can't tell you how many times some dingbat recruiter has called me to find out if I have X Y and Z skill, when X Y and Z do not appear on my resume. If it's not on my resume, I DON'T HAVE IT. The most amusing thing here is the recruiter's reaction when you ask them about that.. "uhh, well.. *stammer* sometimes people have hidden skills".. If they're not on their, they're either non-existent or the candidate doesn't WANT you to know about them.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

Open letter continued:

6. If you're recruiting IT workers, MAKE AN EFFORT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. ASP is not PHP, Microsoft SQL Server is not MySQL is not PostgreSQL, IIS is not Apache, Java IS NOT THE BLOODY SAME THING AS Javascript! I've spoken with IT recruiters who couldn't even pronounce the buzzwords they were attempting to recruit me on. And before you start whining about not being technical, #1 you shouldn't be recruiting technical people, #2 use Wikipedia. You cannot place qualified people off of word searching.

6a. If your client is listing requirements that are physically impossible, go back to the client and explain why. For example: AJAX is a hot buzzword technology right now. It has been around for two years. DO NOT accept a job description that asks for five years experience with AJAX. Ain't gonna happen. Not physically possible. Same goes for ten years of C# (released in 2001), five years of Java 5.0 (released in 2004), five years of PHP5 (also released in 2004). Each one of those numbers was available to me after about ten seconds on Wikipedia.

7. Most qualified candidates know that "Compensation commensurate on experience" really means "We'll pay you as little as possible." Give salary ranges up front. If you don't have one from the client, say so. Unless you have actual numbers, you have no information at all. Don't spin it. (Matter of fact, don't spin. List the facts and let the candidate ask questions. It's faster that way.)

8. Don't spam. I'm not going to explain that one further; if you don't understand why it's bad, then you're beyond help.

9. READ THE RESUME BEFORE YOU CALL. Just about every time, almost without exception, that a recruiter has called me, I've had occasion to ask if they'd read my resume because they got something completely wrong about my experience or skills. More often than not, they haven't read it. Haven't even skimmed it. Why is this such a difficult concept?

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David in Tampa, Florida

89 months ago

Otto, you sure do make a lot of assumptions about me. Call them like you see them right? You don't know me or know a damn thing about how I do business. To give you credit though, your open letter is good for the most part. Items one, two, most of three (sometimes cliens are truly confidential-- not my call... if candidates have a problem with it they simply don't get submitted), and DEFINITLY four are good. Five though I could argue against you on that. I just placed a software developer that did not have the "uhhh, well.. *stammer* skills" to technically get the job. Guess what? We talked about it, submitted him, and *GASP!* he got the job because the client thought he had the attitude and aptitude to learn quickly! Now he's got a job that paying him more money than he's ever made and training him on the latest and greatest technologies because some punk recruiter saw beyond the resume and got him in front of the manager that HR would have disqualified. How can you possibly argue against that?

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David in Tampa, Florida

89 months ago

6. I agree
6a. I agree
7. I agree somewhat. Salary negotiation is complicated and varies depending on client. It is always in the recruiters best interest to negociate a high salary on a perm job, but at the same time we have to justify that based on salary history and skill set. If someone is making $30k and applies to a job paying $90k, I had better come to the table with strong "PROFESSIONAL" reasons justifying a massive raise (i.e. - increased technical skill set)
8. I agree - however with recipient approval a hot list sent to current candidates and past candidates is good especially since we offer referral money.
9. I agree - rookie mistake.

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Evil Otto in Bedford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

David in Tampa, Florida said: Five though I could argue against you on that. I just placed a software developer that did not have the "uhhh, well.. *stammer* skills" to technically get the job.
The "stammer" comment was in reference to a recruiter being called on something that he/she should know about but disregarded in the hopes of turning that square peg into a round one.
David in Tampa, Florida said: Guess what? We talked about it, submitted him, and *GASP!* he got the job because the client thought he had the attitude and aptitude to learn quickly!
Did he have technical qualifications that didn't appear on his resume? I'm betting that the answer is "no".
David in Tampa, Florida said: Now he's got a job that paying him more money than he's ever made and training him on the latest and greatest technologies because some punk recruiter saw beyond the resume and got him in front of the manager that HR would have disqualified. How can you possibly argue against that?
I'm talking about the assumption that people have skills they haven't listed on their resume. I'm sorry, but if I have experience with a programming language or administrative experience with a technology, I'm going to list it. You wouldn't call a carpenter with an accounting position, right?

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Evil Otto in Bedford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

David in Tampa, Florida said:
7. I agree somewhat. Salary negotiation is complicated and varies depending on client. It is always in the recruiters best interest to negociate a high salary on a perm job, but at the same time we have to justify that based on salary history and skill set. If someone is making $30k and applies to a job paying $90k, I had better come to the table with strong "PROFESSIONAL" reasons justifying a massive raise (i.e. - increased technical skill set)
Again, you've missed what I was trying to say. I wasn't talking about what salary is appropriate for a skill set, I was talking about the salary range that the client is willing to offer (regardless of whether that salary is "appropriate" or not. Frequently I've seen positions that should pay in the 70s to 80s advertised for $40k. What that tells me is that the company is only concerned with how much someone costs, not whether they can do the job or not. That information is valuable to a candidate in deciding if it's a company they want to work for.)
David in Tampa, Florida said: 8. I agree - however with recipient approval a hot list sent to current candidates and past candidates is good especially since we offer referral money.
The ONLY circumstance under which asking for that referral is if there's a previous relationship; i.e. "The client declined to interview you, but if there's someone you know about that has X Y Z skills, let me know." Sending someone a wildly inappropriate position (for example, sending a software engineer an accounting position) is no better than Viagra spam.

To reply in general: You're right, I don't know you. I know about the experiences I have had, and almost to a one they have been bad for some or all of the above reasons. Don't shoot the messenger; work to improve your industry.

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38+ is old age in the IT industry in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

Evil Otto - GOOD JOB in your replies. You are exactly correct per my experience now & a few yrs ago ... both on mass downsizings.

Everything you said is EXACTLY what I've experienced EXTENSIVELY. EXACTLY.

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38+ is old age in the IT industry in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

AND... what did you do about the other canidates you submitted. String them along AS IF they were your most valuable canidate?

1 success for 1 person.... and 3+ ... well unemployed/looking.

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38+ is old age in the IT industry in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

BRAVO.

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Judge Group committed Fraud didn't they! in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

Recruiters also help facilitate Discrimination. Did you know it's not against the law for a recruiter to ask...then...disclose info. to the company in question. Easy way to profile, isn't it!

In all reality, the original statements about the Judge Group were true to Evil Otto experience
...and for me I learned to work with multiple recruiters last downsizing round specifically due to fraudulent statements. Phone interview screening/company phone interview/ in - person... find out the info. given regarding pay level & health insurance was very off. Thus I'd spent all that time & theirs just to discover that I would never have accepted the first company interview or any interview if the Recruiter had been ACCURATE & TRUTHFUL. Pitiful waste of my time.

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Judge Group committed Fraud didn't they! in Frisco, Texas

89 months ago

Uhhh what!
I can't be mis-informed about 100% my experiences...

not second hand accounts from others... my experiences. I've even come across recruiters in the real world who I'd worked with & one left because of the Recruiter - head of the company deceit which included my experience. That person told me exactly what I'd already determined must be.

Regarding the double submission... well if YOU don't tell me WHO you are submitting it to then how would I ever know it's being double submitted vs. another company in the same industry. Duuuhhhhh!

Also, I have submitted resume's myself directly to companies & had a recruiter not disclose the company just to find out it was the same company. The Recruiters fault completely for not providing the info up front.

Also, If I don't know the company I'm being submitted to and I choose not to work with multiple recruiters,

HOW MANY COMPANY OPPORTUNITIES COULD I BE MISSING ELSEWHERE?

General discriptions from a recruiter could be literally any company any where.

The ONE I didn't work with might be a completely different PERFECT job....and lost chance.

If your client company expects you not to disclose their name AND they choose to farm out their searches to multiple recriters then it's also their own fault if they get double submissions.

In addition, a great recruiter is also sales person who Sells the canidate to the client & prepare the canidate to WIN the job with guidence to what the client company is looking for.... 99% of recruiters have no concept of this.

A manager who'd love to talk to me - & who does when I track them down myself may not even receive my resume' from a recruiter.... but the recruiter will still act like All is Well and string me along instead of just saying I'm not a match to their understanding.

What a waste of my time and planning.

Tampa:I can't imagine why you feel compelled to defend your profession against people who are telling you THIS IS MY EXPERIENC

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robert1 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

89 months ago

Evil Otto in Bedford, Massachusetts said: Again, you've missed what I was trying to say. I wasn't talking about what salary is appropriate for a skill set, I was talking about the salary range that the client is willing to offer (regardless of whether that salary is "appropriate" or not. Frequently I've seen positions that should pay in the 70s to 80s advertised for $40k. What that tells me is that the company is only concerned with how much someone costs, not whether they can do the job or not. That information is valuable to a candidate in deciding if it's a company they want to work for.) The ONLY circumstance under which asking for that referral is if there's a previous relationship; i.e. "The client declined to interview you, but if there's someone you know about that has X Y Z skills, let me know." Sending someone a wildly inappropriate position (for example, sending a software engineer an accounting position) is no better than Viagra spam.

To reply in general: You're right, I don't know you. I know about the experiences I have had, and almost to a one they have been bad for some or all of the above reasons. Don't shoot the messenger; work to improve your industry.

Evil Otto, you should go after the legal counsel, Amy Feldman. She is a regular guest speaker on Fox News here in Philly, I'm sure Fox would love to hear your story.....

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Anon-confused in Boston, Massachusetts

89 months ago

Is there anyone out there willing to share their experience working as a core staff member for Stride and Associates; that is: Atlantis Partners, The Boylston Group, C. Bridges Associates, MacArthur Associates, Napier Partners and Remington International? All of the above are staffing agencies.
Any information would be greatly appreciated. Or anyone with any exprience dealign with the above staffing agencies?
Reading all this made me weary of the idea of being a recruiter-i don't like lying. I have an interview scheduled for a position in one of the above firms; now i am not so sure....

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Dave in Fort Lauderdale, Florida

89 months ago

Confused - I would not take to heart what you hear in these forums. Most people who comment in these forums are bitter folks who have had bad experiences with recruiters, some of which are justifiable, some that are not. People rarely vent on the "good" things that happen when working with a recruiter. I have been a recruiter for three years and lying to people is not in my routine or required to be successful.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

Dave in Fort Lauderdale, Florida said: Confused - I would not take to heart what you hear in these forums. Most people who comment in these forums are bitter folks who have had bad experiences with recruiters, some of which are justifiable, some that are not. People rarely vent on the "good" things that happen when working with a recruiter. I have been a recruiter for three years and lying to people is not in my routine or required to be successful.

Hey Dave, go lie to some people out of work. Shill.

Anon-Confused: If you like lying to people and making money off whoring them out, sure, go work for them. Also, you should like insane turnover, ridiculous sales goals, and an ethics-free environment. I've been to the Atlantis Partners office in Boston. Complete boiler room. Last time I talked to them they wanted me to come in to meet with them before they'd present my resume to anyone; they didn't say if there was a job open or not. Having been there at least three times, I declined. (It's a lot easier to deal with these douchebags if you aren't out of work.)

Seriously, I'd consider being a Wal-Mart greeter before I did that.

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Anon-confused in Boston, Massachusetts

89 months ago

Thank you both for your comments. I currently have a fairly good job-i do however need extra funds to cover my Graduate fees hence considering changing jobs(current doesn't seem to have the potential for promotions either). They do not offer tuition reimbursement and the recruiter mentioned my being pai way more than i make now plus full benefits. I don't like lying to people or being misleadinging in general. Well i will go talk to them and see what comes of it. If nothing else i will gain another interview under my belt for practice.
I also recieved an email from Sapphire Technologies-anyoen know anything about them. They also want someone to join their team.

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evil otto in Milford, Massachusetts

89 months ago

Anon-confused in Boston, Massachusetts said: Thank you both for your comments. I currently have a fairly good job-i do however need extra funds to cover my Graduate fees hence considering changing jobs(current doesn't seem to have the potential for promotions either). They do not offer tuition reimbursement and the recruiter mentioned my being pai way more than i make now plus full benefits. I don't like lying to people or being misleadinging in general. Well i will go talk to them and see what comes of it. If nothing else i will gain another interview under my belt for practice.
I also recieved an email from Sapphire Technologies-anyoen know anything about them. They also want someone to join their team.

The recruiter is lying about the pay, I'd bet a paycheck on it. I'm sure it's mostly commission, and we all know how that goes.

My advice to you is keep looking. There are much better ways to make a living. If you don't like being misleading I'd avoid anything in sales; I consider recruiting to be a sales job (they sell the client on you, they sell you on the client. Kind of like being an arms merchant to both sides in a war.)

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islndjak in Pompano Beach, Florida

88 months ago

David where are you in Tampa or Ft. Lauderdale?
As for not bad mouthing recruiters, I have worked with a large number of them over 30 years as a last choice and guess what doing it myself got the job not the recruiters, NEVER had any luck and have been lied to in regards to the position, salary, benefits even the location.
I am not saying all of you people are __________, however I have never had luck I have even received calls from you guys asking for people I know that may be seeking a change due to having positions to fill.? No compensation for my time!
So what us up with that

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acctinfo in Menifee, California

88 months ago

I've had the Judge Group lie to me as well. What they like to do to me is call when they get a "hot" job and say I've got an interview, find times when I'm available then say they'll call me back to confirm. They never do. I guess Judge thinks "I'm perfect" for the job but the client hasn't cleared it or asked for an interview. This last time I asked them to email me a copy of the job description - he couldn't - he didn't have one.

This has happened several times from Judge

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Grants for Education Re-training in Frisco, Texas

87 months ago

What GRANTS are available for Education for Re-training adult workers into new fields?

States? Criteria?

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Grants for Education Re-training in Frisco, Texas

87 months ago

I have been looking out for myself in general life forever.. since my early teens as my parent were very well educated & also sheltered by a religious social environment.

I have been 100% paying for my own way financial for 18 of the past 25 yrs specifically. No family help. No boyfriend help.

Your stern comments are based on YOUR wife.... not someone who is not receiving any husband/spouse/child support daily help or financial help.

I've been working at a high level of pay for years... up until I passed 41 ! Then it became shakey regardless of my own excellent success on the jobs. Entire large groups were cut.

Please, I have numerous Computer classes & the upgraded self-training and a BBA degree. It's an overqualified to start a new career attitude.... most likely backed by over 40 stigma based on their comments & attitude.

There ARE grants for single-parents who've been 'downsized' and cannot continue in the previous field due to unforseen reasons like a dramatic increase in required travel to 75%.
(Just like there are special home loans geared toward single-parents!)

I've been told of them w/ specific details in the past ... but didn't need them at the time as I suspected that I could utilize my skills in similar areanas. Now I see that it's not a stable choice any more.

I am still trying to track down leads to GRANTS and opportunities that will lead me to a different Career that I can do regardless of the age factor.

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Grants for Education Re-training in Frisco, Texas

87 months ago

I'm reminded of a quote from The Princess Bride, my wife's favorite movie:

"Life is pain, princess. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something."

I have been looking out for myself in general life forever.. since my early teens as my parent were very well educated & also sheltered by a religious social environment.

I have been 100% paying for my own way financial for 18 of the past 25 yrs specifically. No family help. No boyfriend help.

Your stern comments are based on YOUR wife.... not someone who is not receiving any husband/spouse/child support daily help or financial help.

I've been working at a high level of pay for years... up until I passed 41 ! Then it became shakey regardless of my own excellent success on the jobs. Entire large groups were cut.

Please, I have numerous Computer classes & the upgraded self-training and a BBA degree. It's an overqualified to start a new career attitude.... most likely backed by over 40 stigma based on their comments & attitude.

There ARE grants for single-parents who've been 'downsized' and cannot continue in the previous field due to unforseen reasons like a dramatic increase in required travel to 75%.
(Just like there are special home loans geared toward single-parents!)

I've been told of them w/ specific details in the past ... but didn't need them at the time as I suspected that I could utilize my skills in similar areanas. Now I see that it's not a stable choice any more.

I am still trying to track down leads to GRANTS and opportunities that will lead me to a different Career that I can do regardless of the age factor.

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evilotto in Middleboro, Massachusetts

87 months ago

Just noticed the double post, too. You really don't know how to run a computer, do you.

You are not entitled to anything. You are your only advocate. Nothing will change unless you **make it change. Realize that your fate is in *your* hands, not anyone else's. Don't blame your ex-boyfriend/baby daddy/ex-husband/whatever. Don't blame the hiring managers that won't look past your age. Don't whine about how you were working steady until you were 41, like that's some huge accomplishment.

You can barely string a sentence together. You refuse to take responsibility for your own circumstances. Any place that suddenly forced you into 75% travel, knowing that you have a child, was looking to get rid of you for some reason or another. If your skills haven't kept up to the point where you can get another job, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

If the grants are out there, FIND THEM. You found them once, find them again.

And quit posting in a thread about recruiters. Maybe if you stopped looking/posting in places that are unrelated to what you're looking for, you'll have better luck.

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Good Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas

86 months ago

evilotto in Middleboro, Massachusetts said: Well, if there are grants out there, I'm sure you'll find them.

What won't help you is whining about all the bad things that have happened to you, boo hoo. Get over it, pick yourself up, dust off your resume, and stop looking for a goddamn handout.

Of course, if you're posting in this thread looking for grant assistance, then I think your main problem is that you're stupid. You should probably fix that. (Your bad spelling/grammar are also indicative of that suspicion.) Quit being a victim. Self-pity doesn't play well in a job interview.

continued:

Therefore, I need to retrain into a new field.

When speaking to Under 32 year olds about lower level jobs than where I've already been it's an issue. As previously mentioned my current level and line of work/career now requires 75%+ travel. This is not acceptable with a child

Further berating by you are not useful to anyone.
I do consider your comments verbal harassment.

If you conduct yourself this way in your job I can't imagine people wantiing to work with you. Pitiful.

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Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas

86 months ago

You're in a tough spot, all right. Clearly you do need help, and I hope you get it. I'm not obligated to give it to you, and neither is anyone else in this thread.

You are deranged and closed minded. Sad that you have such statements and don't see your own failures. You must be truly miserable in your own life to spend this much time name calling and such. Some statements are FACTS. Nothing else. ASS-umptions make you just that.

As anyone can note: You have said nothing ever to anyone on this thread EVER that was POSITIVE and useful. You do however deem yourself to be the ONLY right comments.

DID YOU deal with the consequences of YOUR unemployment by posting on this thread? Of course you did. YOU were unemployed. Did you lose savings? Why were YOU so desparate to take a job without getting it in writing?

When you are downsized 3 times along with 100 to 1000 people in a group in the tech related industry you use up your savings! Duhhhhh.

Your offensive language is tacky and unconstructive.

I choose to post here AND in other threads because I am looking for the people who have the answer. They may not be on the other threads... they may be here.

I choose to write in this fashion as I have this writing style.

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Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas

86 months ago

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. When they were telling me about the 401k that was offered, my jaw went through the floor; it was the best I'd ever heard about. I even took a lower salary than was initially discussed because of it. Come to find out when I went to sign up for it after a month, that what I had been told was not true, and indeed, could not POSSIBLY have been true (because of the tax laws that cover it.)

The difference in the amount of money here is middle five figures over five years. When I called them about it, they confirmed that that was what they had told me, but would not say where they got that information from (and our local HR person denied telling them the same thing that they told me.) Also, as it turns out, the account rep that had been working with my current employer left the Judge Group abruptly after I started calling them.

So there's two possibilities: either they're grossly incompetent in an area that they should be competent in (since they deal with benefit packages every day) or they lied to me about the 401k to get me to take the job. Oh, and did I mention there's nothing about the deal in writing, and no emails either? I did manage to get the recruiter to confirm the figures that she told me initially (that turned out to be pure fiction.)

So I get referred to their corporate counsel. She's since stopped returning my calls after she said she would speak with the branch manager locally (whom I've spoken with as well.) I just left her a message requesting a return call or I would be sending a registered letter to the CEO explaining the situation and detailing her attempts to ignore me.

Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

Read the whole string of post and you'll see this guy speaks this way about everyone.

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Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas

86 months ago

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: I call them like I see them.

And it's not "desperation to work" it's "I have a responsibility to feed my family". And my current employer isn't the problem (as a matter of fact, I just got a raise and a promotion in light of my increased job duties). The problem is that a recruiter lied to me, and deny it all you want, a significant portion of recruiters out there are lying scum. Not all, but some.

If you put "due diligence" on a scale against "eating", guess which one wins.

You RUSHED into this job you BLAME others for because:
And it's not "desperation to work" it's "I have a responsibility to feed my family".

You have a wife. Go tend to her. Good-Grief. You are truly one-side and like a horse with blinders. Hateful attitudes get you no where positive. Useless.

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evilotto in Middleboro, Massachusetts

86 months ago

Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas said: You're in a tough spot, all right. Clearly you do need help, and I hope you get it. I'm not obligated to give it to you, and neither is anyone else in this thread.

You are deranged and closed minded. Sad that you have such statements and don't see your own failures. You must be truly miserable in your own life to spend this much time name calling and such. Some statements are FACTS. Nothing else. ASS-umptions make you just that.


So I express a hope that you get the help you need, and this is how you react? I think you might have some anger issues to work out, there. I can understand why, if you've been laid off multiple times like you say. You might want to consider counseling; it'd probably make finding a better situation easier.

Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas said: As anyone can note: You have said nothing ever to anyone on this thread EVER that was POSITIVE and useful. You do however deem yourself to be the ONLY right comments.

Whatever.

Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas said: DID YOU deal with the consequences of YOUR unemployment by posting on this thread? Of course you did. YOU were unemployed. Did you lose savings? Why were YOU so desparate to take a job without getting it in writing?

I wasn't unemployed. You quoted my original post, but I think you might want to go back and read it again.

Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas said: When you are downsized 3 times along with 100 to 1000 people in a group in the tech related industry you use up your savings! Duhhhhh.

Wow, I haven't heard that in an argument since the eighth grade.

Positive Energy to You in Frisco, Texas said: I choose to write in this fashion as I have this writing style.

And if I said three plus five was 97, and said that was my math style, that would make it right?

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Accounting Acquisition Agent in Gahanna, Ohio

86 months ago

OK, I recruit now, I have been recruited and they lied then and many continue to lie now.

That said,,,,,,,I don't have the time to keep the lie up and I only work with individuals that meet the specific criteria for what I recruit........

I'm a CPA & MBA and I primarily recruit Accountants at the Senior/Manager & Principal level in National/Large regional practices,,,,,,they are my peers, I'm most comfortable with them etc...... So, if you are a good candidate for a post I have:::::

if you submit your information and it does meet that criteria,,,you are not only a liar also, but you are wasting my time!

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