LIED to by recruiter

I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. When they were telling me about the 401k that was offered, my jaw went through the floor; it was the best I'd ever heard about. I even took a lower salary than was initially discussed because of it. Come to find out when I went to sign up for it after a month, that what I had been told was not true, and indeed, could not POSSIBLY have been true (because of the tax laws that cover it.)

The difference in the amount of money here is middle five figures over five years. When I called them about it, they confirmed that that was what they had told me, but would not say where they got that information from (and our local HR person denied telling them the same thing that they told me.) Also, as it turns out, the account rep that had been working with my current employer left the Judge Group abruptly after I started calling them.

So there's two possibilities: either they're grossly incompetent in an area that they should be competent in (since they deal with benefit packages every day) or they lied to me about the 401k to get me to take the job. Oh, and did I mention there's nothing about the deal in writing, and no emails either? I did manage to get the recruiter to confirm the figures that she told me initially (that turned out to be pure fiction.)

So I get referred to their corporate counsel. She's since stopped returning my calls after she said she would speak with the branch manager locally (whom I've spoken with as well.) I just left her a message requesting a return call or I would be sending a registered letter to the CEO explaining the situation and detailing her attempts to ignore me.

Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

Very good info. I, too, have experienced the utter uselessness of many recruiters. Frankly, they simply can't hold the same jobs they shop around, and generally understand very little of the specifics. Watch out for AccountPros. Very slick, very full of lies, too.

More good news. Turns out that in addition to lying to me about the 401k, they lied to me about the bonus structure as well. Turns out that instead of the up to $5k they promised me, the most I can ever expect is $900.

So we're up to about $100k over five years.

Registered letters to corporate counsel and CEO have gone unanswered.

I really wish these companies were better regulated in this state. As far as I can tell, they can lie their asses off to get someone to take a job and walk away with their commission, with no consequences. My only recourse seems to be suing them, and that's big $$ up front.

I've filed a consumer complaint with the AG's office. Hopefully someone will pay attention.

Good for you! I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who makes these people HEAR what these companies are doing. It is nice to know that there are others out there that fight for what is right!

Thanks JF. I appreciate your support.

I just wish there were something more effective I could do about the situation. I know the AG's office is inundated with this stuff and can't help but probably not give this its full attention. I wish there were lawyers out there who were able to take this case on spec or pro bono, but I can't blame people for not wanting to take it on, since there's not a lot of precedent or law to support my position. That's the real problem here. When I get back from my vacation (Aruba-bound!) I'm thinking about composing a pointed letter to my state congresscritter.

You are quite welcome EO!

Pro Bonos are hard to come by. But I do feel that companies should be more regulated and since the world is getting more technology savvy and more things are done on-line then maybe all interviews/applications would go to a central server to a regulated agency who can see who is applying and asking the questions as to why that person was not hired and have both sides submit responses. This way they, the govt, would know who was being duped and could come done hard on companies that do not follows the laws. We need to get rid of the "Work At Will" status. No one works 'at will' we work to survive. This would also help the people of this country keep their jobs as companies would have to give very detailed reasons as to why they are letting someone go. The govt. has to go through rigorous paperwork to let an employee go and I think that private industry should have to do the same.

Would love to be in your suitcase! I need a vacation!

I don't know if I'd go as far as having a central agency as I think you're describing. Generally I find that getting the government involved rarely simplifies things :)

However, what I WOULD like to see is this: any company that recruits potential employees on behalf of a third party would need to fill out a standardized form detailing the job, the benefits, salary, etc, and have it approved by the third party company. A copy of this form would need to be produced on demand to the candidate for that job when the recruiting company contacts them. This way, there's no question of circumstances and there's a record of the offer. I don't think this introduces any onerous demands on the recruiter, and it would benefit everyone involved without creating excessive bureaucracy. One thing I did take away from my days as an EMT was "If it isn't in writing, it didn't happen." Document, document, document.

I am a recruiter, and I am totally appalled by the situation that has been described here.
One of the things that I always do is to make sure any offer is given to a candidate IN WRITING - ALWAYS!!! It is the best way to protect both the candidate, agency and the end employer to make sure there is never a miscommunication. (Sounds like your situation is more than a miscommunication...it makes me sick.)

Anyway, good luck - I hope you get what you deserve. Also, hopefully this agency and employer will take a strong hard look at their offer process so something like this will never happen again.

By the way, I must say it really ticks me off too, on a professional level, because it most recruiters are professional, but there are enough bad apples in the bunch to give us all a bad name.

Yes it is disgusting and making the professional people of this world all look bad. But hey, we have a govt. that can lie, steal, cheat, and they are the ones who make the laws in the first place. They are the ones setting the examples for all the other companies.

"WE'RE DOOMED; WE'RE ALL DOOMED!" Who would've thought that cartoon would've had the quote that now is our country's future for the people.

Recruiter in TX in Plano, Texas said: I am a recruiter, and I am totally appalled by the situation that has been described here.
One of the things that I always do is to make sure any offer is given to a candidate IN WRITING - ALWAYS!!! It is the best way to protect both the candidate, agency and the end employer to make sure there is never a miscommunication. (Sounds like your situation is more than a miscommunication...it makes me sick.)

Anyway, good luck - I hope you get what you deserve. Also, hopefully this agency and employer will take a strong hard look at their offer process so something like this will never happen again.

By the way, I must say it really ticks me off too, on a professional level, because it most recruiters are professional, but there are enough bad apples in the bunch to give us all a bad name.

I won't completely disagree with you, but I have 25 years of experience in the law firm industry (where recruiters are used almost exclusively by the firms): Many of your colleagues are doing this for a while, but not forever. Their committment to us - poor saps looking for a job - is often lacking, and that is hard to accept. You may be a true pro, but try pretending to be someone job-seeking and contact another recruiter. I think you'll experience what many of us compain about.

I have been a recruiter for >10 years. The world is full of lousy candidates, and lousy agencies. I think job seekers should beware of large cookie cutter/franchise agencies because their staff often lacks experience. Well established small boutiques are probably best way to go.

Evil otto, it sounds to me like you were quite naive. Never accept any position in any profession with any company if the terms are not in writing. Not ever. Not when you are working through agency. Not when you are being recruited directly.

If you find you have been hired by a company that misrepresented itself when it made its offer and won't correct its mistake in good faith, simply make haste for the door. You aren't a slave.

Charles in Amherst, New Hampshire said: I have been a recruiter for >10 years. The world is full of lousy candidates, and lousy agencies. I think job seekers should beware of large cookie cutter/franchise agencies because their staff often lacks experience. Well established small boutiques are probably best way to go.

Evil otto, it sounds to me like you were quite naive. Never accept any position in any profession with any company if the terms are not in writing. Not ever. Not when you are working through agency. Not when you are being recruited directly.

If you find you have been hired by a company that misrepresented itself when it made its offer and won't correct its mistake in good faith, simply make haste for the door. You aren't a slave.

First of all, I did ask for the terms of the job in writing. I was told that I would be receiving a packet detailing all the conditions before my start date. I did not receive the packet, and since I needed the job, I started. By the time I found out that there was a problem, I had shut down my job search.

My employer was not aware of a problem until I was. I'm not in a position to walk away from a job because of a miscommunication which by all reports was not my employer's fault.

I am not naive. There's a difference between "naive" and "getting lied to." Had I not started the job on the agreed upon day, I would not be employed. I'm not naive enough to think that my current employer would be sympathetic to a situation that they knew nothing about and was not at fault for. When I asked my new employer for the promised information, I was told they knew nothing about it.

IF you want to offer me a job, I'll walk away from this one. Until then, I see no reason to lose my house on a principal. Not when there are other options.

I am also a recruiter and agree with Charles. Evil Otto, you should never have put in your notice without getting the terms of your compensation in writing -- bottom line. If you were selling your house would you accept a verbal offer? I didn't think so why do it with your career.

Because, if you'd read my earlier posts, you'd have noticed that I wasn't working at the time. Not everyone has the luxury of waiting for all the Is to be dotted and Ts to be crossed before they need to start paying the mortgage. Maybe I should try calling up the bank and saying "Oh I'm waiting for a letter from my new job before I can start working, I'm sure you won't mind if the payment is late"?

Should I have shown up at my new employer on my first day and said "I'm not working until I have x y and z in writing"? I'd then be back to looking for another job, since as far as my employer was concerned, I'd gotten all that from the recruiter (who lied to both of us).

Things are different on our side of the fence. We actually have to do real work to get paid, as opposed to recruiters who lie cheat and steal their way into profiting off of others' actual skills and hard work.

It sounds to me like your desparation to work got in the way of you due diligence as a candidate. Take the lesson and move on. If you are now working then you should make a move to a company that will compensate you what you deserve instead of complaining about it and considering legal action that you will undoubtly lose.

And please Otto stop with the insults. Just because you had a bad experience with the Judge Group doesn't mean we are all bad.

I call them like I see them.

And it's not "desperation to work" it's "I have a responsibility to feed my family". And my current employer isn't the problem (as a matter of fact, I just got a raise and a promotion in light of my increased job duties). The problem is that a recruiter lied to me, and deny it all you want, a significant portion of recruiters out there are lying scum. Not all, but some.

If you put "due diligence" on a scale against "eating", guess which one wins.

KUDOS to you OTTO!!!!! I've been eating one meal a day for a long time now and these individuals obviously have never been put into a situation like this.

To those of YOU who feel that WE UNEMPLOYED COMPLAINING FOLK should move on --- if you lose your job due to corporate greed - are over 40 - have the education, skills, experience, and are hardworking.......... just wait, you will be on this board venting just like the rest of us. You will lose everything that you worked all your life for and then have it all taken away!!! Why? Because there is the new, younger, cheaper versions, that lack skill, experience, dedication, and dependability that WILL get YOUR jobs too!! Be careful what you say, because it just might come biting your butt too!!! Stop judging what someone else is going through and just imagine yourself in our shoes -- THINK REAL HARD and FEEL IT!!!! If you are capable! Now imagine your family having no food, no home, nothing but living to hopefully get hired, to eat, & to feel all the pressure of providing for your family and you are lied to!!! THINK!! FEEL!!! DO YOU HAVE A HEART THAT IS BEATING or ARE YOU ONE WHO THINKS IT WON'T HAPPEN TO YOU??? THINK! FEEL!!! IMAGINE!!! Now, live it!

I agree. I had a terrible experience with the Judge Group too.
Why are you afraid to let people discuss it? The guy,Ty,was one of these gregarious,laughing, heh, heh, heh rah. rah guys. All he wanted was to gloss over everything to get me to interview. The money was $20K less than I was currently making. But he told me "not to focus on the money, let's see if they like you". I went on the interview which was a 2-hour drive from my house. The job was NOTHING like Ty described. Total waste of my time. JUDGE Group is worthless. I have refused any further calls from those jerks.

Bob Bitter in Downingtown, Pennsylvania said: I agree. I had a terrible experience with the Judge Group too.
Why are you afraid to let people discuss it? The guy,Ty,was one of these gregarious,laughing, heh, heh, heh rah. rah guys. All he wanted was to gloss over everything to get me to interview. The money was $20K less than I was currently making. But he told me "not to focus on the money, let's see if they like you". I went on the interview which was a 2-hour drive from my house. The job was NOTHING like Ty described. Total waste of my time. JUDGE Group is worthless. I have refused any further calls from those jerks.

I hear ya bitter,, the guy probably has no experience, hiring guys off the street is what you get, no real interview process internaly. he was taking a shot, looks like a no go. Yeh, the leadership there is severly lacking,, the best thing you can do is land a job, get into a job that requires hiring from you, and never ever work with them. They are big time scammers.

For all the good it will do, make sure that you all file a complaint with your Better Business Bureau. In some cases that still has relevance.

If you were lied to by the recruiter or especially if the posting or advertisement was false and you can prove it. Contact your state Attorney General's office (here in NC that's the Department of Justice). File a compliant with the Consumer Fraud Division. Any ad or posting is covered the the "truth in advertising" laws. Any misrepresentation is fraud - specifically business fraud.

Bubba, I filed said complaint on June 4th. It hasn't been reviewed as yet, but that seems about right, being summer and all. I'm keeping in touch with them.

Sorry to hear of your experience.
I try to get all promises and claims before accepting employment IN WRITING. If the employer is hesitant or unwilling to provide you with such documentation, there is good reason to suspect they are inflating the job perks to persuade you to sign on with them.

Jobless Female in Vienna, Virginia said: KUDOS to you OTTO!!!!! I've been eating one meal a day for a long time now and these individuals obviously have never been put into a situation like this.

To those of YOU who feel that WE UNEMPLOYED COMPLAINING FOLK should move on --- if you lose your job due to corporate greed - are over 40 - have the education, skills, experience, and are hardworking.......... just wait, you will be on this board venting just like the rest of us. You will lose everything that you worked all your life for and then have it all taken away!!! Why? Because there is the new, younger, cheaper versions, that lack skill, experience, dedication, and dependability that WILL get YOUR jobs too!! Be careful what you say, because it just might come biting your butt too!!! Stop judging what someone else is going through and just imagine yourself in our shoes -- THINK REAL HARD and FEEL IT!!!! If you are capable! Now imagine your family having no food, no home, nothing but living to hopefully get hired, to eat, & to feel all the pressure of providing for your family and you are lied to!!! THINK!! FEEL!!! DO YOU HAVE A HEART THAT IS BEATING or ARE YOU ONE WHO THINKS IT WON'T HAPPEN TO YOU??? THINK! FEEL!!! IMAGINE!!! Now, live it!

Yes, over 40 and have been GROUP down-sized 3 times. Didn't do anything wrong. Obvious bad decision by executives and other executives that per major executives at the client company "They Lied" ...they are not allowed in the front door.

So here I am with the above exact description in my own life with a 4 yr old boy & being sole provider. Sometime you MUST take a job. It's necessity. I am not, you are not and the other mentioned job-seeker that was mis-lead ... we are not independantly wealthy. We need a income. We do not wish to lose everything. We do not wish to be homeless or such.

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. When they were telling me about the 401k that was offered, my jaw went through the floor; it was the best I'd ever heard about. I even took a lower salary than was initially discussed because of it. Come to find out when I went to sign up for it after a month, that what I had been told was not true, and indeed, could not POSSIBLY have been true (because of the tax laws that cover it.)

The difference in the amount of money here is middle five figures over five years. When I called them about it, they confirmed that that was what they had told me, but would not say where they got that information from (and our local HR person denied telling them the same thing that they told me.) Also, as it turns out, the account rep that had been working with my current employer left the Judge Group abruptly after I started calling them.

So there's two possibilities: either they're grossly incompetent in an area that they should be competent in (since they deal with benefit packages every day) or they lied to me about the 401k to get me to take the job. Oh, and did I mention there's nothing about the deal in writing, and no emails either? I did manage to get the recruiter to confirm the figures that she told me initially (that turned out to be pure fiction.)

So I get referred to their corporate counsel. She's since stopped returning my calls after she said she would speak with the branch manager locally (whom I've spoken with as well.) I just left her a message requesting a return call or I would be sending a registered letter to the CEO explaining the situation and detailing her attempts to ignore me.

Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

Recruiters lie all the time. The turnover rate in the industry is enormous.

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: Thanks JF. I appreciate your support.

I just wish there were something more effective I could do about the situation. I know the AG's office is inundated with this stuff and can't help but probably not give this its full attention. I wish there were lawyers out there who were able to take this case on spec or pro bono, but I can't blame people for not wanting to take it on, since there's not a lot of precedent or law to support my position. That's the real problem here. When I get back from my vacation (Aruba-bound!) I'm thinking about composing a pointed letter to my state congresscritter.

Other than recruiters that lie .... be very careful of Executive Professional resume' writing services. Paid good money to one in Florida - Career Services - they did not complete the research in 5 months. It was agreed that the research should be completed & letters out no later than 6 wks maximum. No refunds for their failure either. They did fire the research person but as a job seeker - unemployed - the whole purpose was to get a huge jump start up front and prevent my current hardship situation. Hardship on myself and my young child... I did my part 100% beyond agreed amounts and even supplied leads when they failed. Career Services of Orlando, Florida is at least as bad as your experience.

Beth in Willisburg, Kentucky said: Sorry to hear of your experience.
I try to get all promises and claims before accepting employment IN WRITING. If the employer is hesitant or unwilling to provide you with such documentation, there is good reason to suspect they are inflating the job perks to persuade you to sign on with them.

I requested a written copy of my job offer, and was told that I would receive it in the mail along with other information from my new employer. Said mail did not arrive before my start date. On my first day, my new employer told me they knew nothing about it, and had not been asked to send something out.

I suppose my new employer might be feigning ignorance, but rather than jeopardize my new job, I elected to start working.

Couple points.

1. Most cities television stations have trouble shooters who can do stories on bad business practices and yes, recruiters are coming up on the radar for bad business practices these days. Remember that the journalist has their adgenda just as you do but if you can get them to think it's their idea and see the bigger picture - just how many folks are affected they might run with the story.

2. Most recruting companies are nothing more or less than a franchised business opportunity. With the rapid growth in this segment of franchising the common "due diligence" by the seller of the franchise is what's called "3 day waiting period for the check to clear". If the franchise payment clears they're qualified to buy a franchise and operate. Now the old line big name fast food companies learned a long time ago that is a recipe for problems.

3. If you find a company practicing in violation of a state's business opportunities laws - get an attorney. In NC business opportunities violations have a treble damage admendment. That's where all damages are tripled.

4. If you file a compliant with the Consumer Fraud Division of your states AG office then also file one with the state Dept of Labor. If you don't like one doctor doing a rectal exam imagine two at the same time looking side by side.

5. Now before you file any compliant make a few courtesy calls with each agency. Grease the skids folks. Strategically drop some ideas in some laps if you get the drift.

Bubba In Raleigh said: Couple points.

1. Been down that route, had no takers, unfortunately.

2. That sounds likely. Sadly, I don't think it helps in my case.

3. Unfortunately, all the lawyers I've spoken to have wanted a $1k retainer up front, and I just don't have the funds. I've spoken with legal aid, and they basically laughed at me (which I don't really blame them for.) Employment lawyers don't generally take cases on spec, in my experience.

4. I've spoken with the Dept. of Labor, and they unfortunately don't have any jurisdiction here (since I don't have an employer-employee relationship with Judge).

5. I've spoken with every agency I can think of already. All of them referred me back to the AG's office of consumer protection. They have my complaint, but unfortunately have not reviewed it as of yet.

I'm about to call the PA BBB (that's where Judge has its HQ) to find out why my complaint doesn't appear to exist when you search for Judge.

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: 1. Been down that route, had no takers, unfortunately.

2. That sounds likely. Sadly, I don't think it helps in my case.

3. Unfortunately, all the lawyers I've spoken to have wanted a $1k retainer up front, and I just don't have the funds. I've spoken with legal aid, and they basically laughed at me (which I don't really blame them for.) Employment lawyers don't generally take cases on spec, in my experience.

4. I've spoken with the Dept. of Labor, and they unfortunately don't have any jurisdiction here (since I don't have an employer-employee relationship with Judge).

5. I've spoken with every agency I can think of already. All of them referred me back to the AG's office of consumer protection. They have my complaint, but unfortunately have not reviewed it as of yet.

I'm about to call the PA BBB (that's where Judge has its HQ) to find out why my complaint doesn't appear to exist when you search for Judge.

I know this company very well, we should talk offline.

robert1, please contact me at zburnham (at) gmail (dot) com . (Email obfuscated to avoid the spambots.)

do you know how back asswords they are. They tend to pull managers they have made $$$$ with and hire them on staff, in-house, eliminating that flow of business, what morons. And wait til the goofy nephew takes over, he isn't qualified to sell Avon door to door.
Have another one MJ, on the house

WATCH OUT! Go to the Better Business Bureau of Orlando.
I can't express this WATCH OUT enough. They will try to cover themselves. They will lie to do so. Do NOT believe their excuses or other comments.

I've already gone to the PA BBB (Judge is based there), and my problem happened with the office in Boston, so the Orlando BBB would probably not be much help. The PA BBB has finally accepted that my complaint isn't an employment issue, so they've entered it and sent notification to Judge, for all the good that will do.

Evil Otto in Bedford, Massachusetts said: I've already gone to the PA BBB (Judge is based there), and my problem happened with the office in Boston, so the Orlando BBB would probably not be much help. The PA BBB has finally accepted that my complaint isn't an employment issue, so they've entered it and sent notification to Judge, for all the good that will do.

Recently had a nightmare experience with Career Services of Orlando, Florida. Reported them at length to the BBB. Career Services, although they know 110% that they are at error... hey they even fired the research dept which caused much of the problem!....if the company decideds not to resolve the complaint the complaint will stay on the BBB records for 3 yrs. ....but I did not receive any refund in any portion from these dishonest scammers. They agreed to do xyz between Jan 1 and Feb 14. On May 31 it still wasnt' done. Duh. On a job search that's a huge, huge problems to delay many months.

David in Tampa, Florida said: I am also a recruiter and agree with Charles. Evil Otto, you should never have put in your notice without getting the terms of your compensation in writing -- bottom line. If you were selling your house would you accept a verbal offer? I didn't think so why do it with your career.

Although it is the ideal practice... if you don't have a current job to to Group massive downsizing of the entire dept. you must move forward and hope.

In addition, whether he got the info as needed in writing or not, THE JUDGE GROUP LIED in the representation of the offer. That's the point. They lied and lied again with HUGE financial consequences for the canidate.

As a whole in % there are a rare few recruiters who could care less about the canidate. Most - and I mean a huge # of most could not care less how much time the canidate spends or how much money is out layed for the opportunity to chat about a job. Pitiful.

Any one looking for a job should be aware:

1. Recruiters only make their money when someone is placed.
They do not care about the canidate. This is strictly a sales (old school stereo type of sales) type transaction.

2. It's a transaction for the recruiter.

3. No matter how nice they are it's a transaction. Don't expect a committed business - friendship... unless you payed them up front for an independant search on your behalf.

4. Recruiters only have a few job openings in their hands at any moment to fill. Some recruiters only have 1 - 2 - 3 in any field or job title.

5. Since a recruiter only has a couple of jobs you could remotely qualify for, YOU MUST USE MULTIPLE RECRUITERS.

6. YOU MUST USE MULTIPLE RECRUITERS.
Unless you are paying upfront for a service to look for a specific job for you. Most recruiters are paid by the company who wants the canidate.

7. MOST RECRUITERS ARE PAID BY THE COMPANY WHO WANTS THE CANIDATE.

8. FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL. WHO'S PAYING? THAT'S WERE A RECRUITERS COMMITTMENT IS.... they are only committed to you the canidate if they think YOU and only YOU will win the job.

9. Recruiters will offer several canidates to the same job just in case one doesn't work out the other might. They increase the % of odds of getting paid for the job placement completion.

10. If a Recruiter sends you through the interview process and some other person gets the job that they didn't send.... the Recruiter has done tons of work for NO PAY.

11. When you follow the money trail and the pay check.... well.... leads to lots of un-caring & couldn't care less recruiters. Assume they don't care about you and the SMILE through it to get the job offer.

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. .....Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

Wish you well. I've had many experiences in the last few years per IT industy "experiments" and then downsizings. Recruiters rarely care and are not on your side. Their only purpose is to keep their own job if they aren't making quota and to make a pay check as most are paid 100% commission. Not surprised at the huge lies. Very sorry to hear they trapped you.

and... your right... when you're unemployed you do the best you can and then take a job out of financial necessity. As the calculations of financial loss below the amount you were told are well...$up there... I hope there is some way you can continue to look for a different job. Use that job to keep you financially afloat and move on. It's easier to get a job when you're already employed... as you well know. I've been lied to so many times or lead down a waste of my time path it's rediculous. Good Luck.

evilotto in Framingham, Massachusetts said: I got my current position through a recruiter at the Judge Group office in Massachusetts. When they were telling me about the 401k that was offered, my jaw went through the floor; it was the best I'd ever heard about. I even took a lower salary than was initially discussed because of it. .....

Don't work with the Judge Group in Boston. Learn from my being ripped off.

P.S. "grossly incompetent" is most likely the best statement. I'd bet on it that the person who told you the $ was not knowledgeable in the field of about 401K, benefits and financials. Many recruiters have HS education (not all but many). The #1 requirement for becoming a recruiter is Sales ability and Ability to live on $0. pay for 6+ months. At 6 months you either get to stay or go. Their living funds are drained by that time too. It's a tough job to get off the ground. If they succeed. They can earn very good money if they are successful, however, for every 1 successful one there are 100's (if not 1000's) who failed.
I know, I've spoken to several per their calls asking me if I'd been interested in becoming a recruiter.

Not a good scenario for the canidates who are relying on them for a new Career-Job referral!

Looking for work myself after a 45 person corporate downsizing. The executives (Pres., VP, Financial) made obvious bad decisions. They stayed. People under them were cut. The President is now a VP on the Board....probably a agreed interum job while he seeks a replacement job at another company. At least HE has a job after he made vast mistakes along with the VP of Sales. 45 of us in several depts don't.

Evil Otto in Concord, Massachusetts said: I call them like I see them.

And it's not "desperation to work" it's "I have a responsibility to feed my family". And my current employer isn't the problem (as a matter of fact, I just got a raise and a promotion in light of my increased job duties). The problem is that a recruiter lied to me, and deny it all you want, a significant portion of recruiters out there are lying scum. Not all, but some.

If you put "due diligence" on a scale against "eating", guess which one wins.

I agree with you completely. People who are working or who have never been downsized are very quick to make comments with the 'ideal' as their base. Let them go from doing well to losing everything or struggling for food or risk or or losing a home... and the list goes on...

Pious comments by Recruiters is not helpful. The recruiter you delt with lied & lied & lied repeatedly to you during your initial interview until your employment.

I'm not into the celebrity thing but legally those tabloids often lie. Only those celebs who have taken them to court have found any relief and protection in their future. Lies cost them money...just as it did you. Those celebs who went to court & obviously won are now rarely in those trash papers. Legal action did work.

Flee, to respond your "insightful" advice:

Yes, most recruiters only make thier money once they place someone. However, most of the time they provide a guarantee with their client that the person they place will stay with the company for a set amount of time, usually 90 days. Therefore it does me no good to decieve someone into taking a position, I will not only lose my commission but most likley a client. Some of my best relationships are with candidates that I never placed, but was able to offer advice, or a lead to a company I can't work with, etc. and guess what? Sometimes it pays off for me, sometimes it doesn't but thats the name of the game and I have met many great people playing it. You say "No matter how nice they are it's a transaction. Don't expect a committed business - friendship... unless you payed them up front for an independant search on your behalf." Don't EVER pay a recruiter to work for you! That is the true scam, guess what those guys do?-- blast your resume to recruiters who work on a contingent basis! "Recruiters will offer several canidates to the same job just in case one doesn't work out the other might. They increase the % of odds of getting paid for the job placement completion." Does anyone ever advise putting all thier eggs in one basket? If I meet 3 qualified candidates for a position that I'm working on, why would I not submit them? Because Flee in Frisco called me first? You SHOULD meet with multiple recruiters, but if you meet with too many, you run a higher risk of double submiting yourself to the same company, which makes everyone look bad!
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the Judge Group. Although I stand by my original statement that everything should have been in writing (with that you have at least a chance at legal action), it is still no excuse to misinform a candiate.
But Flee, your arguments are weak and you are clearly ill informed. I feel sorry for anyone who takes your advice to heart.

David in Tampa, Florida said: Yes, most recruiters only make thier money once they place someone. However, most of the time they provide a guarantee with their client that the person they place will stay with the company for a set amount of time, usually 90 days. Therefore it does me no good to decieve someone into taking a position, I will not only lose my commission but most likley a client.

How do you figure? You have to remember that job candidates are at a HUGE disadvantage in this situation. I was faced with the option of quitting my job because someone that no longer had anything to do with the company or myself lied to me. My employer didn't lie to me. I needed the job. I kept working there. The recruiter got paid. (Hell, I didn't even find out the depth of the lie until I'd been there five months.) And my company will probably work with them again; they got a valuable employee out of the deal (he said trying not to sound egotistical.) Who loses here, except me? There are no negative repercussions to Judge for this action. They fired the sales rep, oh well, hire another, they're disposable, let's go screw the next guy.

David in Tampa, Florida said: Does anyone ever advise putting all thier eggs in one basket? If I meet 3 qualified candidates for a position that I'm working on, why would I not submit them?

Do you tell each of them that they're the only one you're sending there? No? Not shocked.

David in Tampa, Florida said: You SHOULD meet with multiple recruiters, but if you meet with too many, you run a higher risk of double submiting yourself to the same company, which makes everyone look bad!

Well if the recruiters would TELL the candidates what companies they're being submitted to, AND not submit a resume without checking with the candidate first, that could be avoided. Until then, multiple submissions is the recruiter's fault.

David in Tampa, Florida said:
But Flee, your arguments are weak and you are clearly ill informed. I feel sorry for anyone who takes your advice to heart.

From where I'm sitting, he's right on the money. David, you're so far in denial about the truth of the situation that you're starting to believe your own publicity.

Let's cut to the chase.

Recruiters exist because companies are too lazy/cheap/incompetent to find qualified candidates themselves. The actual work of recruiting can be done by someone who didn't finish the tenth grade. The ones who try hard, are honest, and try to do the right thing find themselves utterly destroyed by their less ethical competitors.

A candidate is a paycheck. Not a person, not an asset, just a means to an end. Recruiters will waste a candidate's entire day on an 'intake interview' just to pad their database numbers, and then let the candidate know that the position they'd just called them in on is filled (IF there was ever a position to begin with.)

The only defense that a candidate has is caveat emptor. Treat them like used car salesmen; nothing they say is the truth until they can prove it in writing. Use them like they use us. Play one off the other to make them insane and then burn the guy who doesn't work the hardest. If you're working with recruiters while still at your current job - DO NOT TAKE ANY NONSENSE FROM THEM WHATSOEVER. If you can afford to wait for the right job to come along, don't even return their calls if they don't do EXACTLY what you ask. Demand job descriptions in writing on the FIRST CONTACT. If they don't have a specific open position in their hands RIGHT THAT SECOND, HANG UP.

I guess I've finally had enough. Nobody I know has ever had a GOOD experience with one of these 'people'. Personally, I'd like to see them outlawed or regulated into nonexistence.

Open letter to recruiters reading this thread:

Here are some things you can do to avoid going to the special circle of Hell currently reserved for you:

1. DON'T WASTE PEOPLE'S TIME. If you don't have a specific position in mind, SAY SO in the first minute of the phone conversation or first paragraph of the email. If that hamstrings what you're doing, you should change your strategy. If a candidate is interested in your services despite the lack of a specific position, he/she will respond.

2. Provide proof of EVERYTHING you say in writing, either by fax, postal mail, or email. If you're not willing to put something in writing, it should never enter into the discussion.

3. Tell the candidates what company you represent. I don't give a flying whatsit about 'client confidential' positions. If you tell a candidate who you're working on behalf of, and they get submitted multiple times, that's on them. Personally, I'm pretty sure that multiple submissions only makes the recruiter look worse, since that recruiter doesn't have anything new to show the client, Most client companies will realize that job seekers will do anything and everything to get the resume in front of them, and won't hold multiple copies against them.

4. DO NOT LIE. If you're not 100% sure what's coming out of your mouth is the (verifiable) truth, DON'T SAY IT.

5. Don't try to turn a square peg into a round one. If the job req requires skills that aren't on someone's resume, well, that's their problem for not listing them. I can't tell you how many times some dingbat recruiter has called me to find out if I have X Y and Z skill, when X Y and Z do not appear on my resume. If it's not on my resume, I DON'T HAVE IT. The most amusing thing here is the recruiter's reaction when you ask them about that.. "uhh, well.. *stammer* sometimes people have hidden skills".. If they're not on their, they're either non-existent or the candidate doesn't WANT you to know about them.

Open letter continued:

6. If you're recruiting IT workers, MAKE AN EFFORT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. ASP is not PHP, Microsoft SQL Server is not MySQL is not PostgreSQL, IIS is not Apache, Java IS NOT THE BLOODY SAME THING AS Javascript! I've spoken with IT recruiters who couldn't even pronounce the buzzwords they were attempting to recruit me on. And before you start whining about not being technical, #1 you shouldn't be recruiting technical people, #2 use Wikipedia. You cannot place qualified people off of word searching.

6a. If your client is listing requirements that are physically impossible, go back to the client and explain why. For example: AJAX is a hot buzzword technology right now. It has been around for two years. DO NOT accept a job description that asks for five years experience with AJAX. Ain't gonna happen. Not physically possible. Same goes for ten years of C# (released in 2001), five years of Java 5.0 (released in 2004), five years of PHP5 (also released in 2004). Each one of those numbers was available to me after about ten seconds on Wikipedia.

7. Most qualified candidates know that "Compensation commensurate on experience" really means "We'll pay you as little as possible." Give salary ranges up front. If you don't have one from the client, say so. Unless you have actual numbers, you have no information at all. Don't spin it. (Matter of fact, don't spin. List the facts and let the candidate ask questions. It's faster that way.)

8. Don't spam. I'm not going to explain that one further; if you don't understand why it's bad, then you're beyond help.

9. READ THE RESUME BEFORE YOU CALL. Just about every time, almost without exception, that a recruiter has called me, I've had occasion to ask if they'd read my resume because they got something completely wrong about my experience or skills. More often than not, they haven't read it. Haven't even skimmed it. Why is this such a difficult concept?

Otto, you sure do make a lot of assumptions about me. Call them like you see them right? You don't know me or know a damn thing about how I do business. To give you credit though, your open letter is good for the most part. Items one, two, most of three (sometimes cliens are truly confidential-- not my call... if candidates have a problem with it they simply don't get submitted), and DEFINITLY four are good. Five though I could argue against you on that. I just placed a software developer that did not have the "uhhh, well.. *stammer* skills" to technically get the job. Guess what? We talked about it, submitted him, and *GASP!* he got the job because the client thought he had the attitude and aptitude to learn quickly! Now he's got a job that paying him more money than he's ever made and training him on the latest and greatest technologies because some punk recruiter saw beyond the resume and got him in front of the manager that HR would have disqualified. How can you possibly argue against that?

6. I agree
6a. I agree
7. I agree somewhat. Salary negotiation is complicated and varies depending on client. It is always in the recruiters best interest to negociate a high salary on a perm job, but at the same time we have to justify that based on salary history and skill set. If someone is making $30k and applies to a job paying $90k, I had better come to the table with strong "PROFESSIONAL" reasons justifying a massive raise (i.e. - increased technical skill set)
8. I agree - however with recipient approval a hot list sent to current candidates and past candidates is good especially since we offer referral money.
9. I agree - rookie mistake.

David in Tampa, Florida said: Five though I could argue against you on that. I just placed a software developer that did not have the "uhhh, well.. *stammer* skills" to technically get the job.

The "stammer" comment was in reference to a recruiter being called on something that he/she should know about but disregarded in the hopes of turning that square peg into a round one.

David in Tampa, Florida said: Guess what? We talked about it, submitted him, and *GASP!* he got the job because the client thought he had the attitude and aptitude to learn quickly!

Did he have technical qualifications that didn't appear on his resume? I'm betting that the answer is "no".

David in Tampa, Florida said: Now he's got a job that paying him more money than he's ever made and training him on the latest and greatest technologies because some punk recruiter saw beyond the resume and got him in front of the manager that HR would have disqualified. How can you possibly argue against that?

I'm talking about the assumption that people have skills they haven't listed on their resume. I'm sorry, but if I have experience with a programming language or administrative experience with a technology, I'm going to list it. You wouldn't call a carpenter with an accounting position, right?

David in Tampa, Florida said:
7. I agree somewhat. Salary negotiation is complicated and varies depending on client. It is always in the recruiters best interest to negociate a high salary on a perm job, but at the same time we have to justify that based on salary history and skill set. If someone is making $30k and applies to a job paying $90k, I had better come to the table with strong "PROFESSIONAL" reasons justifying a massive raise (i.e. - increased technical skill set)

Again, you've missed what I was trying to say. I wasn't talking about what salary is appropriate for a skill set, I was talking about the salary range that the client is willing to offer (regardless of whether that salary is "appropriate" or not. Frequently I've seen positions that should pay in the 70s to 80s advertised for $40k. What that tells me is that the company is only concerned with how much someone costs, not whether they can do the job or not. That information is valuable to a candidate in deciding if it's a company they want to work for.)

David in Tampa, Florida said: 8. I agree - however with recipient approval a hot list sent to current candidates and past candidates is good especially since we offer referral money.

The ONLY circumstance under which asking for that referral is if there's a previous relationship; i.e. "The client declined to interview you, but if there's someone you know about that has X Y Z skills, let me know." Sending someone a wildly inappropriate position (for example, sending a software engineer an accounting position) is no better than Viagra spam.

To reply in general: You're right, I don't know you. I know about the experiences I have had, and almost to a one they have been bad for some or all of the above reasons. Don't shoot the messenger; work to improve your industry.

Evil Otto - GOOD JOB in your replies. You are exactly correct per my experience now & a few yrs ago ... both on mass downsizings.

Everything you said is EXACTLY what I've experienced EXTENSIVELY. EXACTLY.