Sell-out-surveying

Biggest problem with surveyors-greed! Very few companies care about quality & integrity today. Most field supervisors hire guys with little or no exp.hoping to save money to get a bonus at years end. Creates many problems: lower wages, less work, bad data, poor work ethic, broken equipment, no field to office communication, subs can’t get const. projects layed out correctly, and glorified crew chiefs can’t make accurate field decisions. Push button party chiefs have made a mockery of our profession. 23yrs.in the field and 8 states later,my mind is made up. Go west ol' man. At least the mexicans havent taken over our trade yet !!!

We also have a board that believes surveyors should draw pretty plats but leave out evidence of procedure and a whole lot more. We have a board that will pull your license for failure in drafting errors. How can a board determine a surveyors ability to survey based upon just one map? I have 33 years of boundary experience and can’t shake a bureaucratic washing machine I am in.

I do believe you're both right as rain! I just quit a company I've worked with for 23 years because the quality of the office work has declined so much! I'm a party chief and I take pride in the fact that I've been told I'm the best there is! When I put my name on a set of field notes I want to be damn sure the work is done as best as it can possibly be done. Now after all these years I can't even find a party chief job worth having. Been out of work for a month now and it's driving me crazy! But this time, the ethics and pride the company I decide to work for will be of the utmost importance!
Joe Willman... PARTY CHIEF!

tombomb in Charlotte, North Carolina said: Biggest problem with surveyors-greed! Very few companies care about quality & integrity today. Most field supervisors hire guys with little or no exp.hoping to save money to get a bonus at years end. Creates many problems: lower wages, less work, bad data, poor work ethic, broken equipment, no field to office communication, subs can’t get const. projects layed out correctly, and glorified crew chiefs can’t make accurate field decisions. Push button party chiefs have made a mockery of our profession. 23yrs.in the field and 8 states later,my mind is made up. Go west ol' man. At least the mexicans havent taken over our trade yet !!!

you are so right i been in surveying for 30 years, before we had a button to push. most of today so called party cheifs do not understand the concept of surveying.

Joe Willman in Sunnyvale, Texas said: I do believe you're both right as rain! I just quit a company I've worked with for 23 years because the quality of the office work has declined so much! I'm a party chief and I take pride in the fact that I've been told I'm the best there is! When I put my name on a set of field notes I want to be damn sure the work is done as best as it can possibly be done. Now after all these years I can't even find a party chief job worth having. Been out of work for a month now and it's driving me crazy! But this time, the ethics and pride the company I decide to work for will be of the utmost importance!
Joe Willman... PARTY CHIEF!

I've been an instrument man for 30 yrs and been layed off since Nov. 08. They layed off 2 crews and kept 1 crew which are much younger than I. (Party Chief is owners son) he stays no matter what which isn't right. His instrument man has less expierence than me (6 yrs). I have pit in resumes in but want younger less expierence workers. What's going on with this profession.

i have seen so call party chiefs that don't know there ass from a hole in the ground, but they have a job. i have been in surveying for 30 yrs. a party chief for 20 yrs, and have been unemployed for months. how come people that know what they are doing are unemployed? carl johnson survey-civil engineer tech.

Carl Johnson in Beaufort, South Carolina said: you are so right i been in surveying for 30 years, before we had a button to push. most of today so called party cheifs do not understand the concept of surveying.

I can teach a monkey which button to push when. Does anyone know what latitude and departure is?

Carl Johnson in Beaufort, South Carolina said: you are so right i been in surveying for 30 years, before we had a button to push. most of today so called party cheifs do not understand the concept of surveying.

I can teach a monkey which button to push when. Does anyone know what latitude and departure is? None these button pushing "Party Chiefs" do

so what are you doing 4 work now ?

only me in Overland Park, Kansas said: I can teach a monkey which button to push when. Does anyone know what latitude and departure is? None these button pushing "Party Chiefs" do

I have been surveying for 30 years, 28 as a crew chief, these so called crew chiefs now, do not even know how to use a calculator, We used to get a set of construction plans handed to us, and we went out and layed out whatever, a mall, subdivision, etc, we had no data collectors, or anything calced for us, nowadays, if it is not in a DC, they can not lay it out, I know some crew chiefs now that can not even figure an offset, let alone stake anything that has not been calced, I would like to see them given a plain set of prints, and be told to go stake anything out, they could not do it, I still carry a 41, a 48, and they think I am nuts, Let someone have to chain something in, they can not even hold a plumbbob, let alone use one, Survey has really changed, I have been laid off since April, but all the $12 an hour so party chiefs are still working, When insurance rates go sky high because of there mistakes, maybe they will think about us REAL Party Chiefs, and think of the money they could have saved by keeping us, instead of them, Surveying will never be the same again, it is a lost art.

i know a but kisser and every time he gos to a job site no matter how often it is like the first time he has been there, but he has a job-lites on but no bodys home

I agree 100 percent with you guys...Survey party chiefs these days are nothing more than expert "button pushers"...they are screwed if something happens to their data collectors. I grew up using a Wild T2 theodolite, station/offset using baselines...then we quickly moved to RED 1a EDM's and then to full total stations. What you have now are companys underbidding and shortcutting to get the job, so they throw the inexperienced, low-paid, buttonpushers out there...bet those companies are in court a lot.

Sorry to hear the way you feel guys, but if I had to guess why a lot of you are in the position you are, it's because of your attitude. Most of you guys claim to have 30 years experience in the same position, why don't you guys have your license? I've seen guys just like you come into a company and try to "prove" what you know, sometimes even trying to pull that stuff over on the Surveyor. The fact is guys, as business owners, you have to ask yourself why a guy is still a I-man or Party Chief after 30 years? It's nice to know how to slope stake using a level and a tape, but the fact is a good Party Chief who knows his way around the new fangled stuff, ie. data collectors and instruments with batteries, can put a lot more stakes in the ground. I'm not trying to bust your chops guys, just letting everyone know that there are always 2 sides to the story.

Sure that's a good point you make "Lost" However, I have 25 yrs. exp. and started out pulling a chain, moved to transits, total stations and now to Trimble Gps systems, paper and pencil to data collectors. The thing missing with the guys that ONLY know the collectors is the common sense it takes to fix many of the untaught errors and problems that occur in the FIELD, not in the office. Boundary surveying for instance, trying to follow hundred year old vara field notes makes the data collector useless if you don't have the sense to find the cors. read a compass or decipher really old f/ns and recognize bearing trees and landmarks. Setting the proper controls to be the most effective in staking subdivisions, well pads, easements etc. A TRUE party chief needs to know a lot more than which button to push. The right attitude IS important when dealing with landowners, clients, and BOSSES!! Not wanting to take direction because you think you've seen and done it all is a mistake that can cost a man his job. A modern party chief should be ready to learn something new daily almost...and learning something old as well. I'm still looking for a pipeline survey job, since Jan. But I'm surviving by being able to locate and paint boundary lines around large OLD tracts of land...you do what you can do my brothers and sisters! Good luck to one and all.
Joe

tombomb in Charlotte, North Carolina said: Biggest problem with surveyors-greed! Very few companies care about quality & integrity today. Most field supervisors hire guys with little or no exp.hoping to save money to get a bonus at years end. Creates many problems: lower wages, less work, bad data, poor work ethic, broken equipment, no field to office communication, subs can’t get const. projects layed out correctly, and glorified crew chiefs can’t make accurate field decisions. Push button party chiefs have made a mockery of our profession. 23yrs.in the field and 8 states later,my mind is made up. Go west ol' man. At least the mexicans havent taken over our trade yet !!!

I agree heavily! Having been in the business for 13 years, I am glad to be rid of this one. If you are thinking of getting into Land Surveying... Please re-think. The NC board which governs surveyors is also pathetic!! You would be better off surveying without a license (less control by the board)! Surveyors only look out for themselves overcharging clients and underpaying employees. I thought this was a good field to go into back in 1992 but 13 years of hard work and not getting anywhere was enough for me.

LostSoul in Cartersville, Georgia said: Sorry to hear the way you feel guys, but if I had to guess why a lot of you are in the position you are, it's because of your attitude. Most of you guys claim to have 30 years experience in the same position, why don't you guys have your license? I've seen guys just like you come into a company and try to "prove" what you know, sometimes even trying to pull that stuff over on the Surveyor. The fact is guys, as business owners, you have to ask yourself why a guy is still a I-man or Party Chief after 30 years? It's nice to know how to slope stake using a level and a tape, but the fact is a good Party Chief who knows his way around the new fangled stuff, ie. data collectors and instruments with batteries, can put a lot more stakes in the ground. I'm not trying to bust your chops guys, just letting everyone know that there are always 2 sides to the story.

Maybe because after surveying for 30 years, I did not have the time or money to get a 4 year degree that most states require you to have now. And as the economy grows worse, is it worth getting a license? there are no surveying jobs here, in NC,
You say the button pushers are OK, well what if the cad tech put in wrong info, the party chief can not read a set of plans, something gets built wrong, Who pays for it? We who have the experiance can just look at it at times, and know there is a problem, I have come across many times, that a cad tech picked the wrong lines for a water line, or back of curb, these new people do not know how to catch it, and correct it without it being re-calced, waste of field time, and office time, plus the contractor is sitting there with his thumb up his ass because he has no stakes to do anything with, Some new PCs are fine, but most do not know surveying, most I know do not own a calculater, or know how to use it, what if you are on a job, a day from the office, and your DC takes a crap, do you waste a day to go back to office,

GREAT STUFF ! GEE, I wonder how many times Mr. PLS has been sued ? Hes probably a price fixer too!

hey twheels in n.c.,what's with the attitude remark?those of us who have given the years,time,and dedication to the profession we love,see very well the transition of dumbing down of surveying in the field.you can lead on the ,shall we say less traveled in surveying,who can't even figure a right triangle, much less count to ten on thier fingers.myself,and those of opinon alike,have a legitamate concern over what is happening.it is because the years of exsperience that we know.sadly a generation of good surveyors are prematurley being replaced while we are still in our prime.unable to contibute to the future tennets of our profession.maybe that is the point of the whole change.all of those claming they want raise the standard oif the profession will not do it with,wanted, career minded pepole wanted,8.00 an hour.you will attract few,and the rest won't give a flying fornacation.wayne hiller.

Wheels in Norlina, North Carolina said: I have been surveying for 30 years, 28 as a crew chief, these so called crew chiefs now, do not even know how to use a calculator, We used to get a set of construction plans handed to us, and we went out and layed out whatever, a mall, subdivision, etc, we had no data collectors, or anything calced for us, nowadays, if it is not in a DC, they can not lay it out, I know some crew chiefs now that can not even figure an offset, let alone stake anything that has not been calced, I would like to see them given a plain set of prints, and be told to go stake anything out, they could not do it, I still carry a 41, a 48, and they think I am nuts, Let someone have to chain something in, they can not even hold a plumbbob, let alone use one, Survey has really changed, I have been laid off since April, but all the $12 an hour so party chiefs are still working, When insurance rates go sky high because of there mistakes, maybe they will think about us REAL Party Chiefs, and think of the money they could have saved by keeping us, instead of them, Surveying will never be the same again, it is a lost art.

Setting out and surveying with a calculator?? mmmm.... Now it's out of date. Total station have been used for decades. Upload the point from computer and do a quick setting out!

if the data is correct ok but computer data is not always correct , i check it then i stake it 12.00 PCs don't check the data and if its wrong the stakeout is bad i have seen bad staking that you could see, i said did you check it, he said he did, but i could see it was not right when i got out of the truck. the thing is that they do not know how to check the data they do not understand the concept of what they are doing much less (surveying) but i got layed off

LostSoul in Cartersville, Georgia said: Sorry to hear the way you feel guys, but if I had to guess why a lot of you are in the position you are, it's because of your attitude. Most of you guys claim to have 30 years experience in the same position, why don't you guys have your license? I've seen guys just like you come into a company and try to "prove" what you know, sometimes even trying to pull that stuff over on the Surveyor. The fact is guys, as business owners, you have to ask yourself why a guy is still a I-man or Party Chief after 30 years? It's nice to know how to slope stake using a level and a tape, but the fact is a good Party Chief who knows his way around the new fangled stuff, ie. data collectors and instruments with batteries, can put a lot more stakes in the ground. I'm not trying to bust your chops guys, just letting everyone know that there are always 2 sides to the story.

A third side: I know Party Chief's who love their job (some with 2-year, 4-year degrees) who don't want to be licensed because they know those who are-are too proud.

It's tough all over, guys, but Land Surveying is still the coolest job on earth and the only job that will always be necessary no matter what so you have to keep up the pride in what you do. You're all right ...to a degree. What I don't agree with is bashing someone for being a crew chief and not going on with the PLS licensing. I'm licensed in two states and I have to say I completely understand why a person wouldn't want that burden. I thank God every day for my current older chief who has no desire for licensing. He likes what he does and he's damn good at it. I trust him alone with the clients. I trust his work. I can't replace someone like that. Some of the best chief's in the business are guys just like him and I always prefer working with them. The young guys often come in and want to tell you just how smart they are... and then push a wrong setting and I have to fix the crap they turn in. Sure, I've seen the bad ones that are old and the bad ones that are young, but I've seen more bad young ones than bad old ones simply because they don't know how to use old methods so they can't possibly understand how the boundaries came about in the first place.

you are so right.i will say surveying-civil engineering,is the coolest job, because it covers almost everything, but the young PCs, is why i been having trouble finding a job (know it alls) i am 51 with 30 years experience, employers want a young guy and pay him nothing a then he cost the company money for errors, so i do not understand the logit, yes in 30 years i have made errors, but not many + i do not want to be a PLS, but it would help in finding a job but thats all for me .

We can blame it all on the engineer PM's. That's where we can probably all agree. Haha. Right now, there are no jobs for LS in Ok and CO, where I'm licensed, so it's not just a licensing problem. The economy went flat and people can't afford to move on anything. It's a bad sign when surveyors are out of work. We were working right up until .... let's see... that might get me into politics, so i'll stop there. I should add that I'm a female licensed land surveyor - something people used to tell me was job security due to minority preference. Yeah - right. I'm working, but have been worried every day for months now.

Hbbob in Cambodia said: Setting out and surveying with a calculator?? mmmm.... Now it's out of date. Total station have been used for decades. Upload the point from computer and do a quick setting out!

it is never out of date. what happens when your d.c. malfunctions,or the data is wrong.you have to know where you have been to know where you are going.otherwise,youcan only go so far then your dead in the water

i agree when the points are correct,mmm but- i know PCs that will stake, when the points were cal- wrong or in the wrong units, and when he is finished he does not chek it, because he don't know how, and it can be so bad you can see that it is not rite but he can't,mmmm and they have jobs,i got layed off. i always check (my) data and test it, or if i get and upload i also check&test it, i had 3-HP 11c, 2-HP 41s, 2-HP 48, HP-32, they were lost or quit working, and now HP 33s,with trig. & cogo programs, so i can check computer data before and while i am staking it, today PCs can not figure grades (hello ) it is just math.

10-4 I worked in Summerville SC. back in 07 ,most people are still using SMI 48s

tombomb64 in Nashville, Tennessee said: 10-4 I worked in Summerville SC. back in 07 ,most people are still using SMI 48s

....check and re-check.the dates

My experience in the survey field was from 1996 to 2008. It was a great job and career to have. To many big babies (ego maniacs) that ran the show. I quit to live another day.

Jobs Bill was kilt by harryreid yesterday. What the hell !

I would like to find a master surveyor who could help me in surveying a never before surveyed tract described in an 1881 deed. This is a rare intact tract that has never been divided and never been surveyed, at least not in over 100 years. Must have excellent references for honesty and ability.

I also am interested in any surveyors who have evidence of or have information regarding the encroachment of or take over of private land through moving of boundaries or otherwise by the US Forest Service, particularly in and around McDowell County?

How big's the tract? I specialize in surveying old tracts of land. Has all the courthouse work been done? All deed references been accounted for? If you're positive the tracts intact then I may be interested in monumenting it for you. E-mail me at jwillman74@yahoo.com with the particulars and we'll see what we can get done.

SO your gonna really drive to NC to do a survey ,wow we are screwed !!!!!!!

Tombom, IF! And that's a big IF, I were to do the survey it would be for the hell of it, not the money. I really do enjoy finding so called "Lost" tracts of land. I can't find one of those big money pipeline jobs anymore, done too many anyway. I'm a boundary surveyor because I dig it, not for the money, so you're safe dude. I've got a lot of friends in N.C. and it'd be a vacation for me. The satisfaction of proving once again that there are NO lost tracts or fabled "No mans land either for that matter. You stay sitting around waiting on work to find you or to find it only on the net, you'll be hungry for a long time bro.

I have been layed off for a year, I would not mind helping free of charge, it would be a chance to get out of the house for a while, and do some surveying, that I love to do, I have done construction for to many years, would really like to do a big plot of land, if you need help, let me know

tombomb in Charlotte, North Carolina said: Biggest problem with surveyors-greed! Very few companies care about quality & integrity today. Most field supervisors hire guys with little or no exp.hoping to save money to get a bonus at years end. Creates many problems: lower wages, less work, bad data, poor work ethic, broken equipment, no field to office communication, subs can’t get const. projects layed out correctly, and glorified crew chiefs can’t make accurate field decisions. Push button party chiefs have made a mockery of our profession. 23yrs.in the field and 8 states later,my mind is made up. Go west ol' man. At least the mexicans havent taken over our trade yet !!!

I agree 100%. I've been surveying and licensed for over 38 years. I get so #@%^* mad when I see these modern day button pushers. I've seen plats, that I would never put my name on. There is no quality or good common sense judgement. I've been out of work for over a year and a half. All they want today is some young sheep skin college grad that has no clue of what really needs to be done in the field to provide a well and accurate survey that the client and the public can stand by.

Dom

Go West, you say? You won't find anything here . . . and for those who think employers only keep the younger ones, not so. I'm 31 and licensed in California and I can't find a job. I was trained by an old school surveyor (I actually still wear a toolbelt and know how to use a plumb bob), I can do the calcs on the hood when my instrument batteries die, I can draft, I can write proposals, I've managed up to 6 crews at a time . . . and still NO JOB! I'm starting to think in this economy, that my license is hurting more than helping. I think employers are really looking for those young guys without families that can travel extensively, without any benefits, and they know just enough to get most jobs done while working for beans. The main reason for this is because the owner can't fire the grey haired surveyor with tons of contacts that brings in what little work they have - they just can't afford both.

chrism79 in Bakersfield, California said: Go West, you say? You won't find anything here . . . and for those who think employers only keep the younger ones, not so. I'm 31 and licensed in California and I can't find a job. I was trained by an old school surveyor (I actually still wear a toolbelt and know how to use a plumb bob), I can do the calcs on the hood when my instrument batteries die, I can draft, I can write proposals, I've managed up to 6 crews at a time . . . and still NO JOB! I'm starting to think in this economy, that my license is hurting more than helping. I think employers are really looking for those young guys without families that can travel extensively, without any benefits, and they know just enough to get most jobs done while working for beans. The main reason for this is because the owner can't fire the grey haired surveyor with tons of contacts that brings in what little work they have - they just can't afford both.

I'd be honored to work with someone like you. You made my day.

Dom

i am unemploymed and button pushers have a job I have 30 years experience but that dose not meen any thing, i know how to work whwn you systems failure, i have a hp-33 and know how to use it, i do not have a PLS or PE just experience.

Greetings. I'm interested in Surveying as a 2nd career, but am somewhat skeptical after reading this thread. If I do decide to pursue, will an Associate Degree be sufficient? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Scott
North Carolina

swebsurf in Raleigh, North Carolina said: Greetings. I'm interested in Surveying as a 2nd career, but am somewhat skeptical after reading this thread. If I do decide to pursue, will an Associate Degree be sufficient? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Scott
North Carolina

Scott, unfortunately an associate degree is not suffient. In florida, the requirment is a four year degree and four years under a professional. Personally, I believe that if a person such as yourself as a 2 year degress and experience, combined with taking CST (Certified Survey Technician) courses, which go to a level 4 and passes, he's more than qualified to take the surveyors exam. There seems to be a lot more postings for engineers then surveyors; you may want to reconsider as an alternative. Good luck to you.

Dom

swebsurf in Raleigh, North Carolina said: Greetings. I'm interested in Surveying as a 2nd career, but am somewhat skeptical after reading this thread. If I do decide to pursue, will an Associate Degree be sufficient? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Scott
North Carolina

Scott,

I have a 2 year degree and am licensed, but that is becoming a thing of the past. You'll have to look at the requirements in the particular state you'd like to work in. I'm licensed in two states and they are the only states I'm interested in working in, so I'm fine with it. Your decision on a 2 or 5 year school will depend on where you want to work and the state's requirements. It's free information listed on every state board site, so you can see for yourself if it's enough for where you want to work. I did have a lot of engineering courses before I switched, so the decision for me was an easy one. I had taken most of the required classes already. You should see what classes you've already taken that may apply toward the degree requirements for your state. You may be able to get that 4 or 5 year required surveying degree in a couple of years if you've had a lot of classes previously that apply like I did.

Good luck!

Carl Johnson in Beaufort, South Carolina said: you are so right i been in surveying for 30 years, before we had a button to push. most of today so called party cheifs do not understand the concept of surveying.

You guys are so right, I have been involved in the business for 30 years before all the shortcut gadgets came about and I must say it makes me sick to see 90% of the people that call themselves party chiefs/surveyors these days. I would love to take em' back a few years or at best take away their GPS and data tech's and then throw them to the wolves. I have busted my booty my entire life to hone my skills and to see some snot nosed brat even think he could ever be in my league is pathetic and they are giving the remaining 10% of us a bad rap with their lack of ethics and skill. I have constructed 1000's of miles of major interstate highways, power plant and transmission lines, pipelines, countless boundary surveys and every thing else under GOD's blue sky, well before GPS and data tech's were ever a thought of. We as REAL party chiefs have lost just about all decision making and the respect of the clients and contractors as a result of corner cutting companies. It has gotten so bad that they have even started hiring unqualified supervisors, so much so that in fact the last several jobs I have accepted wound up with me doing the very same supervisor position that I turned down in the first place simply because I didn't want the headache of dealing with these so called push button make believe party chiefs. Someone PLEASE tell me that there is a solution to this downward spiral that our beloved profession is going down. I am so glad to see that I am not alone in my beliefs and thought, this is just the type place I have been looking for, a place for us remaining 10% er's to voice our opinion and hopefully some day somehow set things right...Anyone know how to get rid of all the satellites???

well i like being able to use DGPS, autotracking instruments, and laser (lidar) scanners are cool, but i see guys i don't know ?? ,,there scared of pencil & paper, one time i was ask ,,why do you take written notes, when you have a data collector, i said if you don't keep hard notes you are a fool, it has covered my ass alot of times.

right,, bad cadd, or bad plans, when i get an upload i test it,,,, i check my work, and anybodys computions, and data collectors can fail,through the years i had - 3 HP 11cs,,1 HP 41,,2 HP 48s that was maybe the best calculator there was,, i know now it is old news, also 1 HP 32s, they all saw a lot of fieldwork, before they quit, or lost,, now i have a HP 33s, with trig, cogo programs, buy the way it will add & substract, tooo

Your right about the HP48 sx/gx there are great and i still use a gx for all my calculations and plan verifications.

That's those button pusher , eventually they wont even know what a pencil and field book is.

How you change the current situation of the so-called party chiefs as you say, is to get your license and start your own company. Once you do this, you can hire, and or train anyone you want to do things the way you want them to do it. I understand that people should know how to do things with just a calculator, but at the same time, why hate technology? I think that the main reason the old school guys are complaining is simply because they can't keep up with the changes in technology, and are simply being pushed out because they can't or don't understand the equipment of today. Sorry guys, but there is a reason it's called "old school".

If I was a business owner, why would I want a guy sit on the hood of the truck and using a pencil, paper, calculator, try to calc a radius point, when he could simply do a distance-distance intersection in the intersection cogo menu, that shows 2 different solutions on a color screen map, using the latest data collector?

Do you guys hate ac in your vehicles as well? Would you rather go back to 45's and eight tracks?

The main issue I see with the "new party chief" is that the DO NOT know how to figure things such as a distance-distance intersection nor anything else. ALL they know to do is "I have to set this point, now push a button to get an angle and distance". They do not even have the experience to notice if something is staked out wrong like an experienced crew chief can.

10-4 on that, i have seen that ,the man on the job could not see it was wrong,,,i could see it was wrong before i got out of truck, they do not understand the concept, of math & science, that is what survey-civil engineering, is,, use your head,,, it is that thing about 3' above youe ass, not that hard