Are current surveys more "accurate than a survey from 20 / 30 years ago ???

This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.

Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80's, 2002 and 2005.

This current civil engineer states that "it's not really an exact thing" ... (What??? I thought it "kind of was"). He goes on to state that modern technology (I'm guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.

Is this true?? I've gotten many surveys on properties that I've owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I'd say that's pretty darn accurate.

I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to "mysteriously" come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just "misses" the neighboring sand mound.

Any thoughts??

Surveying today is more accurate than it was 20-30 years ago. As technology advances, so does surveying. You can achieve better results with todays surveying tools as apposed to 20 years ago...with or without GPS.

I'm sure their are companies out there that will "tweak" the bounds of a property to fit the clients needs. This is not common though as its very unprofessional...not to mention illegal.

You'd be surprised how a better survey can effect a properties acreage. A few seconds/minutes 100ths/tenths +/- can go a long ways.

Hi Joel,

Thanks for the response. I almost forgot that I posted,.

We have a neighbor who's septic encroaches on his neighbors property by about 4 feet. The lot size is 1.01 acres (for 21 years now and multiple surveys). "mysteriously" , this year his surveyor "through current standards and state of the art equipment" - in his words, the lot now comes in at .9956 acres and there is no more encroachment.

I just sounds a bit fishy to me....

Any thoughts??

Brian

Surveying equipment CAN be more PRECISE now than it was years ago but not necessarily as accurate given the users ability to properly operate it. Accuracy depends on the operator him/herself and how well he/she minimizes errors in surveys. The surveys of 1.01 ac. after the original were more than likely "cheap" surveys where the surveyor just copied the original legal description. It all depends on the ranking of evidence and procedures in your state. If the current surveyor found the monuments undisturbed that were set originally (rebar, iron pins, etc.), then his/her measurements of the area are probably more precise and closer to correct (no one can say exactly what the correct measurement is; It is IMPOSSIBLE to be exact in surveying(that's why there are standards in professional surveying)). Also, this doesn't mean GPS was used. GPS is a very convienient and precise tool, but one can be just as accurate using any tool given to them (if they know how to properly operate it). Also, if the rules are the same as Indiana, if the original monuments are found udisturbed, they hold as correct, not the measurements as recorded, so if the original surveyor set the monuments, but couldn't measure worth a darn, then it's probably not actually 1.01 ac as recorded.

Brian in Buckingham, Pennsylvania said: Hi Joel,

Thanks for the response. I almost forgot that I posted,.

We have a neighbor who's septic encroaches on his neighbors property by about 4 feet. The lot size is 1.01 acres (for 21 years now and multiple surveys). "mysteriously" , this year his surveyor "through current standards and state of the art equipment" - in his words, the lot now comes in at .9956 acres and there is no more encroachment.

I just sounds a bit fishy to me....

Any thoughts??

Brian

You say 'if the original monuments are found undisturbed, they hold as correct, not the measurements as recorded'.... where would I find if that is the "rule" here in California.
In a conversation with my surveyor, he mentioned this as a fact, but was unable to tell me where to research it in the state codes, etc. Any hints??

[QUOTE]If the current surveyor found the monuments undisturbed that were set originally (rebar, iron pins, etc.), then his/her measurements of the area are probably more precise and closer to correct (no one can say exactly what the correct measurement is; It is IMPOSSIBLE to be exact in surveying(that's why there are standards in professional surveying)). Also, if the rules are the same as Indiana, if the original monuments are found udisturbed, they hold as correct, not the measurements as recorded, so if the original surveyor set the monuments, but couldn't measure worth a darn, then it's probably not actually 1.01 ac as recorded.

Allison,

Try Gordon v Booker, 97 Cal. 586 (1892)

Mark

Thank you very much, Mark!! With that clue I was able to go directly to some case citation that I can use in court to back up all the other 'evidence' that I have. I had searched before but was not finding exactly what I needed. I have an idiot of a neighbor. ;-}
Again...many thanks!
Allison

Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said: This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.

Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80's, 2002 and 2005.

This current civil engineer states that "it's not really an exact thing" ... (What??? I thought it "kind of was"). He goes on to state that modern technology (I'm guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.

Is this true?? I've gotten many surveys on properties that I've owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I'd say that's pretty darn accurate.

I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to "mysteriously" come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just "misses" the neighboring sand mound.

Any thoughts??

Although technology is better than ever, in my opinion, the boundaries established from such technology do not necessarily yield a more accurate result. It all boils down to "proper procedures", which, if not followed, will yield questionable results. I have retraced hundreds, if not thousands of surveys in California only to find some of the most accurate of them to have been done with transit and chain. GPS and electronic total stations used today are GREAT TOOLS, and if used properly, will yield great accuracies, however, if not, garbage in-garbage out.
The markers found (if original, undisturbed, and called for on the property survey, will hold.

It's my understanding that the size of a lot is determined by the legal description in the deed and it is the surveyors roll to re-establish the boundary based on the legal description. In Illinois the legal descriptions usually have distance measurements associated with them, be it a parcel or a lot in an addition. Also, in Illinois area is the least controlling measurement. The size of a parcel shouldn't change based on how recent a survey is done.

Actually, every time a parcel or tract is resurveyed, the surveyor performing his task is trying to relocate, or failing to do so, reestablish (reset) the property corners in their ORIGINAL POSITIONS. Say he finds all of the corners and they are undisturbed (very unusual, to say the least) and he measures their spatial relationships with the other corners he found. He computes their positions and makes a report (plat or drawing), calculates the acreage and states it on said drawing. Now, it might be different than the originally calculated area, ot it might not. As surveyors we are allowed a certain positional tolerance (think of it as a corcle with the found corner being the radius point). Here in Texas, that tolerance is a tenth of a foot (1.25 inches), roughly. A surveyors work performed in 1948 will not be as precise as the work of a modern-day surveyor. The technology has changed tremendously. With that in mind, a small parcel, such as an acre or less, may have been surveyed as precisely as, or perhaps even more precisely, than one done today. Why, you ask. The technology today is more applicable to longer measurements over larger areas. A correctly calibrated chain and a plumb bob are just as accurate as the most expensive equipment made. The problem with the chain and plumb bob is that they are only as accurate as Electronic Distance Measuring (EDM's) tools for short distances. The time and effort needed to traverse long distances with a chain and plumb bob is exponentially greater than the effort with the equipment of today. Remember, the equipment we use was made (ultimately) by us and we are flawed. Therefore, our equipment is also flawed. No two surveyors will always measure the same distances and angles as another. This is why we usually have differences in acreage, even though the tract really hasn't changed.

The house behind my house was recently sold and the new owner is in the process of building a fence. The property was recently surveyed and I just found our that the previous owner of my home placed a couple of the sprinkler heads the beyond the recently marked property line. I live in Kansas City, the neighbor's property was surveyed by a local company with years of experience. I am in the process of asking the new neighbor to see if he can move a couple of the fence posts 1-foot into his property to free and clear my sprinklers. Is there a point for me to have my property survey when it appears that the surveyor found the appropriate monuments? What do you think?

Frankly, I think you are making a big thing out of nothing. What happened to the days that neighbors can talk about small tater issues like this and work it out. If it's a big deal to you, move the sprinklers in a bit (plastic moves fairly easy).

Thanks pls5528 in Rocklin, I got it resolved by talking with my new neighbor. I ended up moving the sprinklers because the fence was installed the same day I spoke with my neighbor. He offered to pay 30% of the cost of moving the sprinkler heads. Thanks for the comment.

You are most welcome. I am so glad it worked out, and perhaps (as neighbors) you may be good friends.

Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said: This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.

Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80's, 2002 and 2005.

This current civil engineer states that "it's not really an exact thing" ... (What??? I thought it "kind of was"). He goes on to state that modern technology (I'm guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.

Is this true?? I've gotten many surveys on properties that I've owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I'd say that's pretty darn accurate.

I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to "mysteriously" come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just "misses" the neighboring sand mound.

Any thoughts??

I can assure you that boundary surveying is NOT an exact science. Many factors come into play,such as human error, different interpretations of deeds and legal descriptions over the years,etc.

Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said: This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.

Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80's, 2002 and 2005.

This current civil engineer states that "it's not really an exact thing" ... (What??? I thought it "kind of was"). He goes on to state that modern technology (I'm guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.

Is this true?? I've gotten many surveys on properties that I've owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I'd say that's pretty darn accurate.

I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to "mysteriously" come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just "misses" the neighboring sand mound.

Any thoughts??

What you are supposed to do is use the same like/ kind of equipment and retrace the boundary's as originally set. Using GPS will not provide the same results and they are also subject to error. Many firms use GPS, but very few can talk educated about how it works and the math needed and used to compute a fix. What they were supposed to do is see if they can plot the provided legal description to the ground points and show deviation. I can assure you if we went to court the judge will go with conventional theodolite (turned angles and distance) over GPS. Do not get me wrong GPS is a great land survey tool. It is not the only tool. So much is missed by "leapfrogging" a GPS rover.

There is nothing wrong with using GPS, "conventional" surveying methods or resorting to a mule and chain to retrace a boundary. There is nothing by law that says you have to use the exact same methods the original surveyor used. That would be absurd. What makes all the difference as previously stated by other intelligent surveyors is that the equipment is used properly and proper adjustment methods are used in the office. Monuments of record stand such as a pipe, tree or whatever was recorded. If you notice, the exact method of the original surveyor is not recorded. Therefore, I would submit that it would be nearly impossible to retrace by exact methods even if you wanted to. Also, if the original surveyor used a Leica total station, which one?

ive noticed nobodys talking about wheres the jobs anymore, was hearing alot of gripes about pipeline and everybodies getting laid off and fired, and in the last 6 onths everythings quiet, ive tried every place to find the jobs and got nothing. maybe all your complaing was just b.s. and now everybodys quiet cuz they want to keep it quiet to save they're own jobs. what up with this?

Can I remove the survey markers from my property? I didn't actually even pay for the survey though I do have a report.

Do you know of any research that measured survey accuracy under any conditions? Thanks!

What do you suggest doing about a next door neighbor who moved a fence over your property line? According to my survey done in 1999 there is an encroachment. According to a survey I pulled at City Hall on his property done in 2003 he is legal. How are issues resolved when two surveys don't match?

Barbara in Cape Coral in North Fort Myers, Florida said: What do you suggest doing about a next door neighbor who moved a fence over your property line? According to my survey done in 1999 there is an encroachment. According to a survey I pulled at City Hall on his property done in 2003 he is legal. How are issues resolved when two surveys don't match?

Are the property corners still in? How are you determining that your neighbor is encroaching? Not doubting your concern, just that how you determined the encroachment has some effect on the answer.
When you say you have a survey, I'd guess that you have a survey map, but what, on the ground, are you relating that to? What is physically in the ground is the actual 'survey', the map's just the documentation of it.

It's possible one or both of the surveys are incorrect. How much is the encroachment? Field crews sometimes measure fences in different places, such as placing the prism on top of the fence, at the base, to the side, etc. Sloppy, but common practice like this can make locations change between surveys if its a small distance, but that's just speculation until we know the encroachment distance, and is just one of a hundred possibilities of why the 2 maps are different.

I'm local to you and can take a look at the 2 surveys, if you'd like.

Jacob in KC in Lees Summit, Missouri said: The house behind my house was recently sold and the new owner is in the process of building a fence. The property was recently surveyed and I just found our that the previous owner of my home placed a couple of the sprinkler heads the beyond the recently marked property line. I live in Kansas City , the neighbor's property was surveyed by a local company with years of experience. I am in the process of asking the new neighbor to see if he can move a couple of the fence posts 1-foot into his property to free and clear my sprinklers. Is there a point for me to have my property survey when it appears that the surveyor found the appropriate monuments? What do you think?

A fence can not be built on the property line. As parts of it would overstep the bounds. Local Zoning regulations should cover this. However if you disagree with the survey that places the fence "on your property" then you need to hire a surveyor to check it. Your next step would be the challenge the location of the fence with the local building officials as a permit should have been issued. Failure to do so could result in adverse possession if indeed the fence is placed on your property.

Hoping someone can help me. I purchased property in 2008 and I am now having issues with my neighbor in the back. When I moved into the house there was no fence built in the backyard between the two garages. The garages and an existing accessory room that was built is what actually divides the two properties and the garage. Neighbor now wants to build a fence and the space between the two garages is approximately about 1 and 1/2 feet. He claims that the end of my garage is the end of my property line and wants to build fence there but there has never been a fence for over 25 years. I actually have lived next door to my current home for 25 years so that is how i have this information. Can someone please help me out.

Thank you

HappyFeet in Los Angeles, California said: Hoping someone can help me. I purchased property in 2008 and I am now having issues with my neighbor in the back. When I moved into the house there was no fence built in the backyard between the two garages. The garages and an existing accessory room that was built is what actually divides the two properties and the garage. Neighbor now wants to build a fence and the space between the two garages is approximately about 1 and 1/2 feet. He claims that the end of my garage is the end of my property line and wants to build fence there but there has never been a fence for over 25 years. I actually have lived next door to my current home for 25 years so that is how i have this information. Can someone please help me out.

Thank you

Go to your Land Records Office and look up your deed and see if it refers to a Survey Map on file at the records office. That may give you some quick information. But this is actually a perfect example of why a Licensed Surveyor is necessary. Boundary Retracement is not somethng that should be left to a homeowner. Find a good mid-price range Surveyor that has well maintained trucks and equipment and hire him to resolve the issue. Also ask your realtor or Lawyer for a professional referal.

Joel in Morrow, Georgia said: Surveying today is more accurate than it was 20-30 years ago. As technology advances, so does surveying. You can achieve better results with todays surveying tools as apposed to 20 years ago...with or without GPS.

I'm sure their are companies out there that will "tweak" the bounds of a property to fit the clients needs. This is not common though as its very unprofessional...not to mention illegal.

You'd be surprised how a better survey can effect a properties acreage. A few seconds/minutes 100ths/tenths +/- can go a long ways.

it all depends on who is operating the equipment and running the crew

Brian in Furlong, Pennsylvania said: This may be a strange question. At a recent public meeting, a Civil engineer stood up and suggested that a property in our area that is listed as 1.01 acres is actually .9959 acres.

Even though the original survey from 1976 shows the lot as 1.01 acre and so do 5 or 6 separate surveys done by different engineers in the mid 80's, 2002 and 2005.

This current civil engineer states that "it's not really an exact thing" ... (What??? I thought it "kind of was"). He goes on to state that modern technology (I'm guessing GPS even though he did not mention this), makes it possible to be more accurate.

Is this true?? I've gotten many surveys on properties that I've owned and many times, the surveyors actually would hit an original iron pin that was buried deep in the soil from a previous survey ! I'd say that's pretty darn accurate.

I was just curious if someone could give me some info on this or let me know if this guy is full of B.S. At 1.01 acres, the property next door (that the same owner still owns) has a septic system that encroaches on this 1.01 acre property and I suspect this is why he wants the other lot to "mysteriously" come in at .9959 now. The smaller size just "misses" the neighboring sand mound.

Any thoughts??

First off, where did the engineer get the acreage of the parcel, from a tax map, survey/deed or description? Many times tax accessors have an acreage that only heaven knows where that number came from if it isn't in the deed.

Secondly, the difference between 1.01 acres and 0.9959 acres is slightly more than 600 sq. ft. On a parcel of land 208 feet square (1 acre) that means you could be out 3 feet on one side of the parcel you are surveying.
For the engineer to take the acreage out to 4 decimal places he is saying that he is within 4 square feet of any variance in that acreage. Personally I never go greater than hundreths of an acre and if I must I disclaim the heck out of it.

There is a fence built between my house and the other house over twenty years ago. The owner who built the house this house has changed hands two more times. The fence they built is still in place. The third home owner who has lived there for ten years, know thinks that the retaining wall we built on our side of the property is 0.5-1.0 inches on his property. Two different surveys with two different results. Retaining wall was in when he moved in. Any suggestions or help

There is a fence built between my house and the other house over twenty years ago. The owner who built the house this house has changed hands two more times. The fence they built is still in place. The third home owner who has lived there for ten years, know thinks that the retaining wall we built on our side of the property is 0.5-1.0 inches on his property. Two different surveys with two different results. Retaining wall was in when he moved in. Any suggestions or help

HELP!!! Just bought 6.63 acres of land in the country. My new neighbors are complaining that I am on his property by about 50 ft. which will come out to about half an acre in the long run. Well we just had the land surveyed about 4 months ago. We paid $2500 an acre. The section that they are complaining about is worthless just an old drive with a huge ditch in it. The taxes are cheap about $45 a year. But if the surveyor got it wrong by over 50ft. what can I do? If it is that far off it cost me about $1250 to much. He says he has a survey that shows the line where he says and I have one where I say it is. HELP!!

@ Stephen
Contact an attorney, or tell your neighbor to get a surveyor to complete a survey of his/her property. Hopefully you had a well qualified individual as your surveyor. Correct deed research and understanding monumentation (corners) is key. Anyone can go out and lay out deed dimensions with a calculator. It takes a good knowledge of boundary law to be a good surveyor and unfortunately being licensed as a surveyor doesn't make you a "GOOD" surveyor.
If your surveyor seems to be in error, contact the board of registration for engineers and land surveyors for the state of Mississippi and file a complaint.

Stephen in Tupelo, Mississippi said: HELP!!! Just bought 6.63 acres of land in the country. My new neighbors are complaining that I am on his property by about 50 ft. which will come out to about half an acre in the long run. Well we just had the land surveyed about 4 months ago. We paid $2500 an acre. The section that they are complaining about is worthless just an old drive with a huge ditch in it. The taxes are cheap about $45 a year. But if the surveyor got it wrong by over 50ft. what can I do? If it is that far off it cost me about $1250 to much. He says he has a survey that shows the line where he says and I have one where I say it is. HELP!!

First of all I would advise you NOT to file a complaint with your licensing board and don’t fly off the handle or shoot from the hip. My second piece of advice is; have your survey filed with the land records office at your Town Hall or where ever deeds and plats are filed. My third piece of advice is; sit down with your surveyor and ask him to show you previous surveys on file that abut your property and have him walk you through his retracement.
It is common for people to misunderstand a plat and accurately relate that information to a property corner. I have also seen instances where property owners actually move corners. Then they stand on them and say “see here is my corner and you are trespassing”. I would first sit down with the surveyor that you commissioned and explain your concerns to him. Point out that there is an issue with an abutter and ask him to explain to you how he arrived at his retracement. He may appreciate that your approach as not confrontational and give you all the assistance you need in understanding your survey. You may want to explore with him some additional work setting out property corners. If your neighbor then removes or alters those corners then there a other legal avenues that you can undertake. I don’t know what they are in Mississippi.
Local surveyors ar

HELP!! I have had two surveys done in six months. They don't even agree!! My deed has measurements that do not match what the surveyor marked in 1990. The lot was split off from a piece for family property at that time. Now my cousin has built a "reclaimed" fence along the side and it is on my property IF I get to own the property described in the deed. The difference in the survey measurements on one side is 1.6 feet (or .6 feet according to the second survey) and on the back side it is 4.49 feet (or 4.15 feet on the second one). The length of the property line is 250 feet. So we are talking about a considerable amount of land.
I retained an attorney when I had the first survey done to get the dilapadated fence removed. The second survey was the lawyer's suggestion to back-up the first one.
Which will stand up in court...the measurements in my deed or what a surveyor put on the ground???

Gagal in Southwest Brevard Cnty, Florida said: HELP!! I have had two surveys done in six months. They don't even agree!! My deed has measurements that do not match what the surveyor marked in 1990. The lot was split off from a piece for family property at that time. Now my cousin has built a "reclaimed" fence along the side and it is on my property IF I get to own the property described in the deed. The difference in the survey measurements on one side is 1.6 feet (or .6 feet according to the second survey) and on the back side it is 4.49 feet (or 4.15 feet on the second one). The length of the property line is 250 feet. So we are talking about a considerable amount of land.
I retained an attorney when I had the first survey done to get the dilapadated fence removed. The second survey was the lawyer's suggestion to back-up the first one.
Which will stand up in court...the measurements in my deed or what a surveyor put on the ground???

The Warrantee Deed. Provided that the descriptions are in fact Bearing and Distance from a point. If they describe features or are ambiguous then that can be a problem.

Thanks!

I recently purchased 48acres +/- out of town, and part of the purchase agreement was 1. a warrantee deed and 2. a staked survey. Well, the survey was never done- even thought the seller signed off that it was, and after much hassle, I was able to get it completed this past week. The new survey just came in- and it's 1.36 acres short! Every property line was 11' to 24' short of the survey for the advertised sale. The same company did both surveys- and the seller's portion they kept for themselves came up perfectly matched, but every one of my property lines was short.

How is it possible that the surveys could be so different?! Should I ask for a new survey from a different company? This is more than a $5,000 loss :(

THe question here in NOT 'Which survey is correct?' - the question is 'Why don't the two surveys from the same surveyor match?' - so no need to pay for another one, won't answer the question.

Take the 2 surveys to another surveyor and ask for an opinion as to why these surveys don't agree - much cheaper than another survey and it's really what you need at this point. You don't need more data, you need to sort out the data you have.

Once you have that opinion - possibly something actionable against the first surveyor - you'll be able to make a decision.

If there is something actionable against the first surveyor, based on the opinion of the second surveyor, then you'll need a third survey and can pursue a claim against the surveyor. Cost of the new survey would be in any claim against the first surveyor.

To get another survey first would put you out of pocket for the new survey and no closer to the answer to the question 'why don't these two surveys match?'. You'd just have another question - 'How come none of these three surveys match?'

Just a note - normally surveys will vary slightly, but yours disagree by more than 2% which is pretty well out of the 'acceptable' range.

wtd in Antioch, California said: THe question here in NOT 'Which survey is correct?' - the question is 'Why don't the two surveys from the same surveyor match?' - so no need to pay for another one, won't answer the question.

Take the 2 surveys to another surveyor and ask for an opinion as to why these surveys don't agree - much cheaper than another survey and it's really what you need at this point. You don't need more data, you need to sort out the data you have.

Once you have that opinion - possibly something actionable against the first surveyor - you'll be able to make a decision.

If there is something actionable against the first surveyor, based on the opinion of the second surveyor, then you'll need a third survey and can pursue a claim against the surveyor. Cost of the new survey would be in any claim against the first surveyor.

To get another survey first would put you out of pocket for the new survey and no closer to the answer to the question 'why don't these two surveys match?'. You'd just have another question - 'How come none of these three surveys match?'

Just a note - normally surveys will vary slightly, but yours disagree by more than 2% which is pretty well out of the 'acceptable' range.

Thank you!
One more question- of which I can't seem to find an answer:
1. How much variance is allowed "+/-", standard?
Looking back at the legal property discription on the deed, each property line is followed by those words. The surveying company stated that the first survey- for the land division- was based on the deed description, not an actually staked survey.

Well, that makes a differnce.

THe variance isn't really 'set' or 'standard' - mostly it depends on what people are willing to fight for :)
It's a situational kind of thing, depends on the value of the land, the size of the parcel, occupational lines and such.

For example - if your town required you to have say, 6000 square feet to be able to build a house on your lot and one survey showed 6,002 sq. ft and a second survey showed 5,999 sq. ft that would be a very small variation, but would be significant.

If, on the other hand you had a 600 acre parcel for cattle grazing and you lost 10 acres, well, the only real result is your cows have to graze a foot or two short of where the deed says they can graze - no big deal.

Existing property corners and occupational lines and how long they've been accepted make a great difference. If a new owner gets their parcel staked and shows a neighbor's fence a foot onto their property and it's been accepted by everyone for 20 or 30 years or whatever - probably nothing would come of that. Everybody thought the yard only went to the fence this long - what's the big deal now?

One survey I did out here in CA the property corners were about 150' out of position - owners on both sides had accepted that since the middle 1800's, built fences and outbuildings using those corners - those corners were allowed to stand and the only thing anybody got out of it was a new idea about how much acreage they had.

Sorry so windy - but anyhow, with your two surveys being 'different', one a paper survey and another an actual survey - I guess in the second survey corners were recovered and they'll rule the day - so long as nothing of significance comes of it, i.e. your house is now in your neighbor's yard, etc. This isn't really that unusual and normally the physical monuments will govern, all other things being equal.

In short, accepted physical monuments will take precedence over deed calls generally.

I am also having a boundary dispute with a neighbor. I recently bought a house and have owned it for a year. The house next door was bought 6 months ago. The new neighbors say my driveway is on their property by over four feet and has asked me to move my driveway. They are going to put up a fence and it will begin in the middle of my driveway. My survey and their survey do not agree. They were both done within three months of each other. How can I know which survey to go by and can they make me move a driveway that has been used for 25 years (paved for the last ten)? The new owner called this into question even before she bought the property which is how I found out about her survey and how it doesn't agree with mine. I am afraid that one day I will come home to a fence built right through my driveway.
Recently my neighbor had a new survey done. I found a new pin marked with an orange band and orange flag next to my driveway. According to this mark, my driveway may be over their property up to 18 inches for about 30 feet. I was willing to "trim" the driveway. When I showed this to my neighbor he said that I was incorrect. That the new survey mark at the end of my driveway is off by four feet. This is his new survey mark. He is unwilling to show me where the survey suggests our boundary line is and says I need to get another one. However, I know from the previous responses there is no guarantee that they will agree this time either. What should I do?

Jen in Palm Bay, Florida said: I am also having a boundary dispute with a neighbor. I recently bought a house and have owned it for a year. The house next door was bought 6 months ago. The new neighbors say my driveway is on their property by over four feet and has asked me to move my driveway. They are going to put up a fence and it will begin in the middle of my driveway. My survey and their survey do not agree. They were both done within three months of each other. How can I know which survey to go by and can they make me move a driveway that has been used for 25 years (paved for the last ten)? The new owner called this into question even before she bought the property which is how I found out about her survey and how it doesn't agree with mine. I am afraid that one day I will come home to a fence built right through my driveway.
Recently my neighbor had a new survey done. I found a new pin marked with an orange band and orange flag next to my driveway. According to this mark, my driveway may be over their property up to 18 inches for about 30 feet. I was willing to "trim" the driveway. When I showed this to my neighbor he said that I was incorrect. That the new survey mark at the end of my driveway is off by four feet. This is his new survey mark. He is unwilling to show me where the survey suggests our boundary line is and says I need to get another one. However, I know from the previous responses there is no guarantee that they will agree this time either. What should I do?

First of all I would check in with the local building official to determine whether a fence can be built without a building permit.

I would then reasearch the warrantee deed history going back to the original subdivision to determine whether or not an easement or right-of-way had been granted for the driveway. If so then the problem ends there.

The of course there is adverse possession. How long has the driveway been there and used?

Yes the survey that I currently have is 11years old. I do not believe there is a right of way for the driveway or an easement but this driveway has been used since the house was originally built 27 years ago and the driveway was paved 10 years ago. There is no knowledge of any issue of "encroaching" in the history of the property according to the previous owners account. He owned the property for 10 years and the driveway was put in soon after he purchased it. After completing a survey he paved the dirt driveway that had been in place since the original owner 25 years ago.

Jen in Palm Bay, Florida said: I am also having a boundary dispute ...

I probably wouldn't sweat this too much.
This happened -
[quote]Recently my neighbor had a new survey done. I found a new pin marked with an orange band and orange flag next to my driveway.

But yet -
[quote]
When I showed this to my neighbor he said that I was incorrect. That the new survey mark at the end of my driveway is off by four feet.

Says who?

You've got an iron pin, set by a licensed surveyor and your neighbor simply says it's wrong.
I think I'd rely on the pin.
Some comfort might be taken in that the fence installer will too.
When the fence installer shows up, walks to the pin and gets ready to start work and the neighbor walks four feet into your yard and says 'No - start here', the fence installer's gonna have a problem with that.
So I wouldn't worry about coming home to find the neighbor's fence in your driveway ;)
If your neighbor's so sure he's right, have him show you the 'correct' pin at the property corner.
Sounds like you've been as reasonable as could be, offering to trim your driveway - I'd stick to that until he can actually put his finger of some type of monumentation that shows a different location for the property corner.