legal secretary

I want to became a legal secretary, please if you have any good or bad coment about this carrier, let me now.I don't want to spend one year studing something not good enough.

I want to became a legal secretary, if you have any good or bad coment about this carrier, please let me know, it going to take me a year,and a don't want lose my time in somting not good enough.

Yolaine - Being a legal secretary has been, by far, the absolute worst experience of my life. I could no longer stand it, and I have returned to school full time to prepare for a career change. I will be 42 when I graduate. I am depleting my entire life savings because I attend school full time and work p/t; so my salary alone isn't enough money to live on. Furthermore, I am accruing a hefty school loan debt. At my age, I find this very undesirable. Not only can I not afford to contribute to retirement for the time being, but I'm accruing debt when I should be paying it off. I am sick to death of working for attys and will do anything to get out of the industry.

As a legal secretary, there is no room for advancement - you can't get promoted anywhere. It's literally a dead-end job. You are the atty's puppet on strings. You are his grunt, a go-fer. The profession has a reputation for being good pay. I'm not sure why, but my opinion is that it earned that reputation only because, when compared to secretarial/admin jobs in other industries, legal secretary pay looks good because secretaries in other industries get even lower. It angers me to hear people say that legal secretaries get paid as much as college graduates. That might be true, but let me clarify something. A legal secretary with 5-7+ years' experience might get paid the same as a college graduate fresh out of school. The legal secretary at that point is pretty much capped out in salary except for cost-of-living raises, and the college graduate is just starting out. In other words, legal secretary who gets paid the same as a college grad is at the end of her rope, and the college grad is just at the beginning with great room for growth in the future. Of course this depends on what the graduate earn his degree in.

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We've all heard the saying that you get out of life what you put into it. If you want to spend a year (some vocational schools are less) learning to become a legal secretary, then you can expect to get an amount in return relative to an amount you would have otherwise received had you decided to spend the time attending college to earn a four-year degree instead. Again, I know this depends on the degree. I have a friend who got nowhere with her Liberal Arts degree. I also know that accountants in my area are starting at $50K and chemical engineers at $56K. A marketing major was starting at close to $40K (2005 stats). MBA graduates from UC Davis and UC Irvine start out at an average of $78K and $74K, respectively, according to the 2005 U.S. News and World Report.

And honestly, at my age, I just want to be happy. My high school friend recently got a job with HP starting at $15/hr. At our age, that's crappy money. The job has room for advancement (the company has laid off in the past) and a lot of career options as you move up. Had this opportunity been available to me when I first left the legal industry, I would have taken a job like this, even if it was a 50% paycut. I just hated working for attys.

If you choose to be come a legal secretary anyways, then there are some things you need to know: I've already told you its dead end. Firms give yearly raises that don't usually keep up with market rate; so the only way your pay will keep up with the market is to change jobs every few years. Firms hire in secretaries at the going rate but give poor raises; so the newly hired secretaries usually get paid more than the loyal secretaries. Yes, it's true - you get screwed for being a loyal employee.

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For example: In '05, I was making $52.5K/year to work for two named partners, two associates, plus handle alot of admin crap (billing clients, banking, A/R). I received an offer for $59K for a word processor/floater position - $6,500 a year more for a job with a lot less responsibility. I turned it down because I was planning my exit from the industry at that time and wanted to focus on that. I left in June, '06, with a salary of $55k, still $4,000 less than the offer I'd turned down the year before. I was hired as a word process at this job. They continued to give me more responsibilities, effectively making my position worth more, but the yearly raises I received didn't reflect that. That is normal practice for a firm. Sometimes I think they do that intentionally. If they advertise the position as a secretary plus all the admin stuff, they have to offer a higher salary to get someone to accept the position. They wait until you are already on board then increase your responsibilities.

I am tired of writing, but you need to know that the worst thing about this industry is the attys. Firms are often very tense and hostile environment. You very rarely come across a legal secretary who likes her job. There is an industry-wide morale problem. If you are being told that secretarial jobs are on the rise, well that's probably true. But it's not because the number of secretary jobs out there is increasing. It's because the number of secretaries who are fed up and leaving the field is increasing and the number of secretaries entering the field is decreasing. The shortage of legal secretaries creates a demand. It seems that the younger generation is getting smart and going to college and staying away from jobs like these. You very rarely see a secretary under 35, and at 39 when I left the industry, I was younger than a great majority of my coworkers.

Legal secretary is nothing but a J.O.B. - Just Over Broke. A career has room for advancement and opportunity growth. You can actually get promoted somewhere.

Good Luck

One more thing - sorry - If you think $55k is good money - it's not when you consider the area in which I lived. That was in Orange County, California, where I paid $1535 to live in, literally, the cheapest apartment complex in the city. My lease was ending 2 weeks before I left, and had I stayed the rent would have been increased to $1635. That was lower than what they were charging brand new tenants, and as I understand it now, you can't get a two bedroom there for under $2000.

I moved to a cheaper area because it was more affordable for me to attend school. Here, when my lease ended last year, I got only a $10 increase!!

If you want to own a home and save for retirement, research other careers.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: dh in Northern CA, California: "If you think $55k is good money - it's not when you consider the area in which I lived. That was in Orange County, California, where I paid $1535 to live in, literally, the cheapest apartment complex in the city...."

In Denver, however, $55K is fine money for any nonlawyer. I would have been like a pig in sh!t if I could have made that kind of money - and, given the perfect, and I mean perfect, set of circumstances, might, with a big M, entertain returning to law for that kind of money. Not in litigation, though; they can take litigation and shove it because:

dh in NorCal: "[T]he worst thing about this industry is the attys. Firms are often very tense and hostile environments...."

No kidding. I would go one step further. Firms are very tense and hostile environments, or crazy and disorganized environments. Once again, I am not kidding.

Good luck with what you decide to do. Hopefully, not law.

You are so funny - "Pig in sh!t." haha. I was curious; so I did a little salary calculator. According to CNNMoney.com, 55,000 in Orange County is "comparable" to $36,497.25 in Denver, CO. My guess is, had I accepted that $59k offer almost 3 years ago, that possibly I'd be making $65K in OC today, "comparable" to $43,422 in Denver (I'd also probably be due for another job change to keep up with the going rate). On the other hand, $55,000 in Denver is comparable to $82,882 in OC. Now that's some money I could live on in the OC; yet it wouldn't be enough to own a home in a decent neighborhood. Here's the link:

cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html?step=form&x=31&y=7

Yolaine-If you're still reading and I haven't bored you to death:

$55,000 in Orange County is comparable to $35,185 in Tampa, according to a salary calculator I found on CNNMoney.com. The link is above. And $65,000 is worth 41,583.

I hope you find something you enjoy. I'm certain it won't be legal secretary.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: dh in Northern CA, California: ...compares to $60,278.51 in OC. That figure isn't much more than the $55K you said wouldn't go far in OC.

You're right. With each raise I received, I wanted to take that extra money and put it into 401k yet still maintain the same standard of living. But when you consider taxes, rent increase of roughly $100/year and other inflation, it just didn't work. My last raise for the new year was $2500 gross, and rent increase alone is $1200. There isn't a chance in hell in buying a home. I just felt I could never get ahead, and for a dead-end job that would not allow me to have anything to show for it in the long run, I was NOT willing to put up with that crap from the attys.

The attys can't survive without a secretary. I worked for attys who had rental properties, owned second vacation homes in the mountains or desert, and traveled to Europe/Asia for a month every year. They wouldn't have the money to do all that without a secretary doing the grunt work, handling the clients, and staying over for a weekend (I never did that) because a client had a last minute deal he wanted to close.

We had a staff meeting once regarding client relations. We were told to start keeping track of clients' and their wives' (!!) birthdays, also the interests of their children and a bunch of other stuff I can't recall. They wanted bday cards sent and sports events tickets sent for the kids as thank you for a referral or whatever. It was a lot of work, and one of the partners told us, verbatim "We want this accomplished without any effort on the part of the attys." I'm digressing/venting, but my point is that the bottom line is the secretary is there for one reason - help this guy get rich while she (or he) will never have anything to show for it. It's such a waste of time. Sorry for the diatribe.

dh, thanks you. you've open my eyes. I am glad I found this forum, and ask people with experiance.I am definetly going to colege, for somthing much better. And $35,185 do not worth the sacrify, to work for them.And going to have to work hard, my inglish it's not so good,or my writing, thas why I am going back to school, I am cuban, I study inglish for only 8 months, and I haven't go to school for like 5 years so it going to be hard, but I don't care because do better with my live. Thank you very much.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Another comment for you, Yolaine. More and more employers want bilingual English-Spanish ability. I would cultivate it if I were you.

Good luck with school.

thank you I will.

In addition to the problems cited previously on this blog, the role of the legal secretary is changing. Young lawyers have been raised on the computer and do quite a bit of the production work themselves, at least in draft form. I don't see it as a secure field for the future.

Ellobern in New York, New York said: In addition to the problems cited previously on this blog, the role of the legal secretary is changing. Young lawyers have been raised on the computer and do quite a bit of the production work themselves, at least in draft form. I don't see it as a secure field for the future.

Hi Ellobem - It seems to me that the transcriptionists are especially becoming extinct, and that's very unfortunate. My first law job required me to sit and transcribe tapes all day, which I loved. I was left alone and had no attorney contact. That was only 8 years ago, and now I never hear of anyone using a dictaphone. My last firm required a word processor. That job required fixing the attorney's written in changes to real estate documents that were 100 pages long, or more.

It's unfortunate because, for a legal secretary who's sick to death of working for attys but thinks she's too old to change careers, transcriptionist is a good way to go, if only the demand were high.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about the new generation of lawyers being so computer literate. My last associate actually taught me some computer skills a lot of secretaries don't have, and he gave me something do once every other day!!

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Even older lawyers have deigned to learn the computer. My last office's lawyers included three older ones. All three were computer literate.

Although I usually helped the one for whom I worked with computer issues, he showed me a couple of tricks. He showed me how to insert a file into a document. Great trick! It was better than a macro.

He could print documents, but either addressed envelopes with a typewriter (!) or had me print address labels. But he never would run his self-prepared mailings through the postage meter. Odd......

At my last firm, I worked for a man who was admitted to the bar in 1967. He semi-retired right before I left. One afternoon, he called me into his office and said excitedly, "Watch this!" He had an email up on his screen, all typed and ready to go. He took his mouse and slowly moved the cursor to the "send" button and clicked it. He got the "sent" message, then looked up at me and smiled like a child who'd just accomplished some great feat. It was hilarious. He had refused to use a computer until a few years before; so to him, that was a big deal. Had he not been a pretty nice guy, I could not have tolerated him, because he was pretty high maintenance although not as bad as many.

My first law firm job was in 1970. I worked for a partner in a small law firm. Every morning he would come in with a stack of redwells under the whole length of his arm and a 30-min. dictation tape, filled to capacity on each side. We did have electric typewriters. Every afternoon, around 4, I'd take the completed work to him for review. Whenever he saw a typo or other error, he would slam his fist down on his desk and yell,
"No... No!" I left that job after 18 months and didn't go back to the legal field for 20 years, and now I would work for only large law firms with better pay and full benefits. I think attorneys are difficult to work for because their work has to be perfect - after all, it involves the law; they are also under a lot of pressure. The real nasties in the legal world are the secretarial managers and supervisors --- they often stoop to duplicity to get the desired result.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said:

... she clearly viewed my wife as a threat to her job, which she wasn't, and harassed her almost daily. My wife tolerated this harassment for four years until she could leave her firm.

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Besides attornies who lack civility, there's the kind of stuff you wrote about above. One of the things that gets me about the legal field is how little time is actually devoted to getting work done. Much of it seems to deal with timewasting silliness and people enacting "mini-dramas" on a routine basis.

Ellobern in New York, New York said: ... now I would work for only large law firms with better pay and full benefits...

I will never work for a sole practitioner again. Afer I left Orange County (CA) for Northern CA in order to return to school full time, I was placed by an agency in a part-time job working for a sole practitioner. I walked out after three weeks. The woman was constantly angry, stomping around and slamming her door. Very soon thereafter, I started working for a sole practitioner - a job I found on my own. This guy was the evilest, most conniving man I'd ever met, worse than any atty I'd ever experienced in So. Cal. There's more than one way to do things, and the way I chose was always wrong; yet he got irritated if I asked how he wanted it done. I just had to resign myself to the fact that he was going to be angry no matter what and just deal with it. At this point, I'd been working p/t for close to a year, dipping into my savings almost that long in order to live, and I wasn't as comfortable now to just walk out. I put up with it because part-time work harder to find, plus I got a decent hourly considering I didn't have to commute to the large metro area closest to where I live.

He fired all his previous secretaries. He constantly lost stuff and wanted me to find it. I don't feel I should look for something I didn't lose. He made me feel incompetent, like I couldn't do nothing right (not the first time an atty's done that to me). Then an employee at our Employment Dev. Dept. told me about how unemployment works. I know it sounds naive, but since I'd never needed to apply before, I didn't know I could just get it for being fired, as long as I didn't do something detrimental (i.e., steal from the company). With my SS#, he could actually see my salary history and told me that, since unemployment pays according to the previous year's income, my unemployment pay would be about the same as the part time job I currently had...

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I would be in the same spot financially if I got fired and approved for unemployment yet not putting up with this guy; so better off altogether. I was told there was no way that I could not be approved but to make sure I keep the job for as long as I could and not quit because then I would be ineligible. The atty got nasty, and since all his former employees filed unemployment against him, I thought he was trying to get me to quit. I continued to show up every day on time and be, in my opinion, a good employee. Since I no longer feared being fired, I also started to treat him more like an adult. Once he said, "You need to look because that's your job." I responded, "Well, Rick, I have no idea where you put it; so I have no idea where to look." He would walk up behind me and ask me to show him where such and such is - I knew it was right on top of his desk. I would tell him so, turn my back on him, and continue working.

While all this was going on, his clients weren't paying their bills, and he wasn't calling to follow up. When he did try to collect on a big bill, he later found out the client filed in pro per paperwork with the court. He was taking taxes out of my checks but getting pink late notices for not paying to the IRS - LOL!!! One case was between two former business partners. They settled out of court for $10K - the opposing guy to pay our client. Well, he paid his former business partner directly instead of to my atty so that he could get his cut first. Last I heard, my atty had never been able to collect his share. He fired me during a month when he received a total of $2367.00 in payments from his clients. I immediately filed UIB, which I received for a week because then I was working again!!

I got carried away. Sorry for those of you who got bored.

dh in Northern CA, California said: .

I got carried away. Sorry for those of you who got bored.

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You didn't bore me at all. I've been there and done that. The important thing is to realize that it is not you and by all means get your UI. Certain firms have reputations with UI because they've fired so many people.

That's part of why they try to pull the "resignation in lieu of termination" stunt.

Hope school is going well for you.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Deborah James in Alameda, California: "That's part of why [some companies] try to pull the 'resignation in lieu of termination' stunt."

Even if they do, you may still be able to collect unemployment. It boils down to whether you were responsible for your termination.

Fifteen years ago, a company terminated me. The bosses offered me termination for unprofessional conduct or resignation and an LOR. I chose resignation and the letter, knowing that being asked to resign is tantamount to termination.

The company contested my claim and I took it to hearing. At the hearing I explained my termination to the referee. He found I was not responsible for my termination and gave me a full award.

(corrected)

Hi Deb - The one thing I worried about was his telling the EDD that I quit. He was such slime that I actually expected him to do that. I printed monthly reports from Timeslips showing his monthy total income from clients. It showed that he couldn't afford to keep me. I documented other things he did, including referring to a woman who contacted him for business as a "*****" I would revise his documents according to his instructions and proofread to make sure they were perfect. Once, he told me I had errors all over a certain document. I later found my final draft in the trash and asked him to show me the errors. There were none. I kept it and wrote everything in detail on the back. I opened all his mail; so I photocopied all his late statements for his bills, including the bill from the IRS showing that he didn't pay taxes deducted from my check for '06. LOL!! It even showed the penalty - over $1000??? I can't remember.

Yes, DLP, a perfect candidate for the Army vehicle training, the best one I had!!

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said:

I chose resignation and the letter, knowing that being asked to resign is tantamount to termination.

The company contested my claim and I took it to hearing. At the hearing I explained my termination to the referee. He found I was not responsible for my termination and gave me a full award.(corrected)

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Exactly. It amazes me that companies don't know that unless you are found to have indulged in "willful misconduct," you'll likely be found eligible for UI, especially law firms.

I just know of someone who had to file an appeal because the UI worker found that she'd quit without good cause in a situation like that. She won on appeal, but it takes close to 3 months. The money was paid retroactively. She was just lucky she had some money saved and her husband was employed part time.

I just don't especially trust employers, ESPECIALLY LAWYERS!

I had an interesting interview today. Years ago, I temped at Littler and left to take a job with a local firm. Big mistake, one of the most unorganized places I've ever been in. I kept hearing that he was previously in business with his father and brother years ago, but that they couldn't stand his lack of organization and unprofessionalism and gave him the boot.

I interviewed with the brother today (small world), and he told me the same story. We had a good session.

I also got a couple of calls to schedule interviews in SF, and one of my interviewers from last week asked if I would work there while he continues to interview for another week or so. He said he really liked me, and was concerned that I might take another offer if he delayed too long.

When I went to visit my friend in the hospital, I picked up a brochure from the Hayward Adult School. They have some really good training programs that are approved for UI training. So, I'm seriously considering that option if this guy doesn't work out.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: IMO, Deborah, you should consider it anyway. Even if attorneys put their best feet forward you know how they really are.

Just my two cents.

Yeah. So true. The guy I described above was great for the first month. I thought I'd finally found a cool, laid back guy. WRONG. It just took a while for him to show his true colors.

And Deb, my close friend in LA, B, was called into her administrator's office and told, "I'm going to have to ask you to resign." B told her, "I'm not resigning, but I can't stop you from firing me." She found out she was pregnant not long after starting the job, and then began to miss a lot of work because of morning sickness. They never did fire her; I think she worked there 3+ years before quitting.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Yeah. So true. The guy I described above was great for the first month. I thought I'd finally found a cool, laid back guy. WRONG. It just took a while for him to show his true colors.

And Deb, my close friend in LA, B, was called into her administrator's office and told, "I'm going to have to ask you to resign." B told her, "I'm not resigning, but I can't stop you from firing me." She found out she was pregnant not long after starting the job, and then began to miss a lot of work because of morning sickness. They never did fire her; I think she worked there 3+ years before quitting.

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Did they know she was pregnant? When my friend found out she had breast cancer, she used up her sick leave and vacation, and then was out on disability for a time. When she returned, they fired her shortly afterwards saying that "even before your illness, your work was suffering." She got her UI, but I think she could have had a wrongful termination claim against them, if she'd chosen that option. It was a small firm, so they were not obligated by the FMLA, but I still think she could have filed an action. Shortly afterwards, she found her current job and has been there for about a year and a half now.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: IMO, Deborah, you should consider it anyway. Even if attorneys put their best feet forward you know how they really are.

Just my two cents.

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The next program starts in September, so that will give me time to see what's happening with this guy. I am well aware of how attorneys are by now, and it's probably a good idea to have another skill to rely on anyway.

I was looking at the medical secretary and billing programs. That's what my background was in before going into legal. I've heard a lot of negatives about the medical field as well though; they also have an accounting clerk program.

Account clerks seem to have no problem finding and keeping jobs because most people don't want to deal with math. I always liked math, so I'll keep that program in mind.

This position is as Office Manager for a small firm, doing the AR/PR and supervising two paralegals and a secretary. We'll just see how it plays out; at least I can plan to enroll in training and get my UI.

Deborah --- "It amazes me that companies don't know that unless you are found to have indulged in "willful misconduct," you'll likely be found eligible for UI, especially law firms." I think they try to get away with anything they can, hoping you'll just go away and do nothing.

Deborah James in Alameda, California said: ____________________________________________________________

Did they know she was pregnant? ...

Yeah, they knew she was pregnant. When she started missing work, she told them why. That's why they asked her to resign instead of just firing her. She later miscarried (not due to stress caused by the job). As far as I know, they never hassled her after she refused to resign.

Ironically, she's now involved in a lawsuit with a firm that fired her in Feb. The main partner continually made sexual advances toward her, and she continued to blow him off. She was fired for being incompetent. She has 20+ years' exp in civil lit. She knows her stuff. A secretary who'd been there 14 years told her this particular atty only harasses the single women. He leaves the married women alone because, accoring to her, they have someone to fall back on and aren't as easily intimidated. B isn't easily intimidated either. That 14-year secretary now works elsewhere, and B's attorney deposed her last week. According to B, she provided names of previous secretaries he'd done this to as well as described specific incidents she'd witnessed in the past. The defense atty thru his pen down, took his client (the partner) into another room and shut the door. B could hear the defense atty yelling, "Is there anything else you want to tell me???!!" B's atty said he loves going to trial in cases like these because "juries hate attorneys." By the way, this partner is married with kids and a minister at his church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If B scores some $$, she's gonna fly me down, and we're gonna have margaritas on Venice, like old times!!

dh in Northern CA, California said:

B could hear the defense atty yelling, "Is there anything else you want to tell me???!!" B's atty said he loves going to trial in cases like these because "juries hate attorneys." By the way, this partner is married with kids and a minister at his church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If B scores some $$, she's gonna fly me down, and we're gonna have margaritas on Venice, like old times!!

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I wish her well. Years ago, there was a sexual harassment lawsuit at one of the huge firms out here. The lady eventually walked away with just over 3 million, and that was after a judge cut the award nearly in half.

You got that right..."juries hate attornies." So does a lot of the general public.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Deborah James in Alameda, California: "You got that right...'juries hate attornies.' So does a lot of the general public."

As well as a significant number of the people who work for them.

It almost sounds like a Jerry Springer topic. "Attorneys and the People Who Hate Them."

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The show would have to have several episodes.

This guy I'm working for used to be a military attorney; that explains his calm, goal driven, on task focus. At least I've been spared drama for the past week.

The blog "Lawyersrighthand" once had a quote: "...the field attracts neurotic personalities...then whacks them out even further."

That description is sometimes accurate for support staff as well.

Deborah James in Alameda, California said: _____________________________________________________________

I wish her well. Years ago, there was a sexual harassment lawsuit at one of the huge firms out here. The lady eventually walked away with just over 3 million, and that was after a judge cut the award nearly in half.

You got that right..."juries hate attornies." So does a lot of the general public.

You wouldn't happen to be talking about the Rena Weeks case, would you? Weeks v. Baker McKenzie?

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Deborah James in Alameda, California: "You got that right...'juries hate attornies.' So does a lot of the general public."

As well as a significant number of the people who work for them.

It almost sounds like a Jerry Springer topic. "Attorneys and the People Who Hate Them."

It's funny that you say that. I was a big talk show junkie in the mid 90's. Now I don't even know who has a show, but I always thought that law firm crap would be a perfect topic.

I swear we all will need therapy after our law firm careers.

Ellobern in New York, New York said: I swear we all will need therapy after our law firm careers.

Ellobern, what is the market like in the City right now? I'll be there in 5 months -

dh in Northern CA, California said: You wouldn't happen to be talking about the Rena Weeks case, would you? Weeks v. Baker McKenzie?

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Yes. Given the publicity, I'm really surprised to hear that another firm would have that kind of thing happening and not address it.

Although I'm always surprised by the "resignation in lieu of termination" bit by cheapskates who don't want to pay UI benefits.

Ellobern in New York, New York said: I swear we all will need therapy after our law firm careers.

Hi Ellobem - THAT'S NOT A JOKE. My friend recently returned to work after being out on stress leave. She's a legal secretary in OC, a former coworker with several years' lit experience.

I have been working part time for the past two years while I finish my degree. When I quit the last full time job I had 2 years ago, I was so burnt out and full of hatred that I couldn't imagine myself ever working anywhere, even outside the legal industry, and liking a job. That was very scary. I moved back to my hometown, and I didn't work for about a month. I didn't feel like it and wondered if I could ever go back to any job, period. I couldn't afford not to.

I don't like my hometown - it's boring. I used to rollerblade on Venice every weekend when I lived in LA. But I'm happy now because I actually love my part time job, and returning to school to earn an Economics degree is one of the best decisions I've ever made. Now I look forward to the future, even though it does scare me, being a fresh college graduate on the job market at 42.

It took me about 9 months after I moved here for my mind to wind down, get rid of that hatred, and just move forward. Until that point, I thought I was going to hate any job I got regardless of what it was and wondered if it was worth it to return to school. I'll never again judge people who've gone on disability because of job stress. Most of the stories I heard about these people gave me the impression they just wanted a free ride. I would have ended up in their shoes had I not left. So someone in this field needing therapy is probably normal.

I know a few attorneys who had therapists, one both a psychiatrist AND a pschologist that he visited once a week.

Deborah James in San Francisco, California said: _______________________________________________________

Yes. Given the publicity, I'm really surprised to hear that another firm would have that kind of thing happening and not address it.

Although I'm always surprised by the "resignation in lieu of termination" bit by cheapskates who don't want to pay UI benefits.

Somebody had to call me to interview me after I applied for the benefits. He told me up front that the attorney hadn't said anything that would disqualify me for benefits. I was pleasantly surprised. As it turned out, I already had a temp job at that point, which I disclosed at the interview. They ended up keeping me; so I got UIB for, I think, just a week.

I hope the economy improves by the time I'm ready for a full time job next year!! It's a good time to be a student, I think.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Somebody had to call me to interview me after I applied for the benefits. He told me up front that the attorney hadn't said anything that would disqualify me for benefits. I was pleasantly surprised. As it turned out, I already had a temp job at that point, which I disclosed at the interview. They ended up keeping me; so I got UIB for, I think, just a week.

I hope the economy improves by the time I'm ready for a full time job next year!! It's a good time to be a student, I think.

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Whenever you quit or are terminated, there is a telephone interview. Very few people are terminated for "willful misconduct," so they usually don't have anything to say that would be valid disqualification for UI benefits. That's why I don't understand the fear and debates I've seen on some of these boards about applying for UI benefits. I do know that some people are hoping, as has been stated here that you'll just get discouraged and go away if they give you enough flak.

Receiving UI benefits is not up to employers, it's determined by the EDD department.

I'm hoping the economy improves as well. A lot of people in all fields, with some exceptions, are out of work or scared that they soon will be.

I'm also glad the extension was approved that will help a lot of people out.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Hi Ellobem - THAT'S NOT A JOKE. My friend recently returned to work after being out on stress leave.

I know a few attorneys who had therapists, one both a psychiatrist AND a pschologist that he visited once a week.

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Probably not enough of them seek the help they need. As I've said before that goes for a lot of support staff as well. This field to me is a mental health worker's paradise. All the psychotic and neurotic personalities you read about in psych books are present in this field.

I actually considered applying for disability (it pays more than UI benefits) but I knew that I wouldn't be able to stop laughing long enough to convince a doctor to complete the forms. I'm amazed that I haven't laughed in some of these people's faces. The stupidity is already unbelievable - the drama just adds amusement.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Somebody had to call me to interview me after I applied for the benefits. He told me up front that the attorney hadn't said anything that would disqualify me for benefits. I was pleasantly surprised

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Usually there isn't anything they could say that would disqualify you for UI benefits, most of them don't seem to know that.

I'm sure I probably could have laughed in a lot of people's faces and gotten by with it for UI purposes, instead of always being cool and calm. I can't believe how seriously some of these people take themselves.

I also doubt that if I had laughed and been fired because of it, that anyone would have said "she was always laughing at me." Although given the whiny, childish natures of some attorneys (and support staff), I could be wrong.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said:

But in Colorado claimants must have caused the termination to be denied benefits.

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Theoretically, that's the way it is in all 50 states. The DOL's rules are controlling.

I posted before about the young lady who was terminated because she asked the attorney to stop yelling and cursing at her. He fired her for "insubordination." I overheard part of his phone conversation with UI. The UI worker said: "she said you were yelling and swearing and she asked you to 'please be more respectful'." She was reluctant to file for UI as well, but finally did and got it - no problem.

Since when is asking someone to stop yelling and cursing insubordination? He had a rep with UI, which the UI worker mentioned to me when I talked to them.

I like dh's comment as well. Except my fear, as I've said is that I'll start laughing in their faces and have probably smrked at quite a few of them. That's why I've never filed a stress related disability claim even though it pays more than UI.

I've raised my children and am interested in working - not babysitting.

The market in NYC doesn't look good, judging from the absence of ads for legal secretaries in the NY Times this past Sunday. Maybe it's because it's summer - secretaries are taking their vacations before making job changes. I'll keep you posted.

Ellobern in New York, New York said: The market in NYC doesn't look good, judging from the absence of ads for legal secretaries in the NY Times this past Sunday. Maybe it's because it's summer - secretaries are taking their vacations before making job changes. I'll keep you posted.

Ellobern - thanks for the response, I appreciate it. I wouldn't be heading up until after the 1st of the year, when typically, jobs start to open up (operative word)...and I've heard of Filcro - and one or two other reputable recruiting firms I'll get in contact with. If you would keep me posted, I would really appreciate it. I keep saying at 41, after being in the field for 23 years, I'm going to do something else - but we all know how that goes.

My email is: hmacfarlane1967@gmail.com

Ellobern in New York, New York said: The market in NYC doesn't look good, judging from the absence of ads for legal secretaries in the NY Times this past Sunday. Maybe it's because it's summer - secretaries are taking their vacations before making job changes. I'll keep you posted.

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Here, most people use Craigslist. The listings in The Recorder (one of the legal papers) have been pared down considerably because of the prolific use of Craigslist by employers and potential employees. For employers, listing a position with Craigslist is much cheaper than a newspaper ad.

There is also a board called www.counsel.net that has job listings. It's free to post jobs there. I found out about it when I was working as Office Manager for a small firm.

Deborah James in Alameda, California said: ______________________________________________________________

Probably not enough of them seek the help they need...

Deb, that atty was the nicest guy for whom I'd ever worked. He confided in me that a few other partners in the firm took antidepressants; I couldn't get him to tell me who. This guy was an accountant and told me if he could go back and do things over again, he'd get his MBA rather than go to law school.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: ...I have to wonder if the hatred, and fear and loathing of working for attorneys, ever goes away...

No - NEVER. At least I don't think so. In my comment, I said it took me 9 months to "get rid of that hatred." Actually, that hatred is still fresh despite having been out of the industry as a full time employee for over 2 years. The anger, hatred, and attorney loathing that sits inside you is there like a brick. I remember the first time I got burned by a guy in my early 20's - I was young, naive, and easily hurt back then. After two years, I caught him cheating and left him. The anger I felt for months afterward was hard to live with. The anger I feel now is very similar, almost as intense, as that. Every morning I wake up and get in the shower. And then I realize that I'm talking to myself in my head, "God, I hated being a legal secretary." It repeats itself over and over, and I have to consciously stop it. Same thing when I'm driving. If you guys know what it's like to get a song stuck in your head and can't get rid of it, that's what I have. And I get sick of hearing my own voice, "I hated being a legal secretary" in my head all day. The kind of hatred when you need to forgive only it's not directed at any person in particular but an entire industry. There are countless attorneys out there that I absolutely hated, yet now I could care less about how they treated me. I don't feel anger toward any particular atty, just the entire industry.

Someone's going to write in here and tell me what a psycho nut I am - voices in my head. I guess what I meant in my previous comment was that it took 9 months for my severe attitude and chip on my shoulder to subside, for my outlook to change and actually believe that I could enjoy a job if I found something better.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: my anger, hatred and loathing is directed primarily at a particular individual and how that individual acted toward me for so many of the several years I worked for that individual, and how that individual ultimately acted toward me.

HI DLP - Didn't you say you were with the same jerk for something like 11 years? Yeah, I can totally understand why anger would be directed toward a person in particular. I was in the industry a grand total of 5 years, 8 months, and 10 days. During that time period, I worked at 3 firms, where I was hired as a word processor, floater, word processor, respectively. The last place immediately turned me into a secretary and gave me additional admin stuff.

I guess my point is that I didn't get stuck with any one guy long enough to develop that deep seated hatred towards him (or her) in particular. I job jumped AND floated while at the job!! My total time in the industry is probably less than the time you spent at that one job.

I really feel for you. I know what it's like to feel a deep anger toward someone (not work related), and it's hard not to spend time imagining scenarios of bring him (or her) down or getting revenge somehow. Not the right way to do things, but we're human.

About 15 years ago, I saw on one of those Current Affair-type shows where they did a little profile on a business in the Midwest that collected cow patties. People could call in and order a cow patty to be delivered to a boss or ex-spouse in the same way that flowers or balloons are delivered. You pay by credit card and if you ordered a fresh patty, it costed more. I looked online for this biz because I wanted to send this female atty at my 2nd firm some fresh $hit, but I couldn't find it.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Deb, that atty was the nicest guy for whom I'd ever worked. He confided in me that a few other partners in the firm took antidepressants; I couldn't get him to tell me who. This guy was an accountant and told me if he could go back and do things over again, he'd get his MBA rather than go to law school.

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Dh, I didn't mean it negatively. I think lots of people in the legal field would benefit from some type of intervention but their arrogance prevents them from seeking help.

One of the attorneys that I used to work for was seeking some type of mental health counseling, and was having a difficult time with our limited health plan. I really liked him. He was young and really struggling to get used to the rigors of litigation as well dealing with some personal problems. He wasn't nearly as prone to outbursts when he finally found someone to talk to. He, at least, realized that he needed some type of help. So many people don't.

Years ago, an older attorney joined one of the firms I worked for in my early days. He'd been a ferocious litigator and then kind of went off the deep end. He went into therapy for a couple of years and "came back." My bosses at the time were very decent and willing to take a chance on him.

He was one of the nicest people I've ever met. I used to listen incredulously to his stories of "back in the day, I would have ....."

Unfortunately, most of them now have no idea that they could profit from therapy, drugs, or both.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Deb, that atty was the nicest guy for whom I'd ever worked. He confided in me that a few other partners in the firm took antidepressants; I couldn't get him to tell me who. This guy was an accountant and told me if he could go back and do things over again, he'd get his MBA rather than go to law school.

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Dh, I didn't mean it negatively. I think lots of people in the legal field would benefit from some type of intervention but their arrogance prevents them from seeking help.

One of the attorneys that I used to work for was seeking some type of mental health counseling, and was having a difficult time with our limited health plan. I really liked him. He was young and really struggling to get used to the rigors of litigation as well dealing with some personal problems. He wasn't nearly as prone to outbursts when he finally found someone to talk to. He, at least, realized that he needed some type of help. So many people don't.

Years ago, an older attorney joined one of the firms I worked for in my early days. He'd been a ferocious litigator and then kind of went off the deep end. He went into therapy for a couple of years and "came back." My bosses at the time were very decent and willing to take a chance on him.

He was one of the nicest people I've ever met. I used to listen incredulously to his stories of "back in the day, I would have ....."

Unfortunately, most of them now have no idea that they could profit from therapy, drugs, or both.

Deborah James in Alameda, California said: ______________________________________________________________

Dh, I didn't mean it negatively. I think lots of people in the legal field would benefit from some type of intervention but their arrogance prevents them from seeking help.

One of the attorneys that I used to work for was seeking some type of mental health counseling, and was having a difficult time with our limited health plan. I really liked him. He was young and really struggling to get used to the rigors of litigation as well dealing with some personal problems. He wasn't nearly as prone to outbursts when he finally found someone to talk to. He, at least, realized that he needed some type of help. So many people don't.

Years ago, an older attorney joined one of the firms I worked for in my early days. He'd been a ferocious litigator and then kind of went off the deep end. He went into therapy for a couple of years and "came back." My bosses at the time were very decent and willing to take a chance on him.

He was one of the nicest people I've ever met. I used to listen incredulously to his stories of "back in the day, I would have ....."

Unfortunately, most of them now have no idea that they could profit from therapy, drugs, or both.

Hi Deb - I didn't mean to give you the impression that I took it negatively. I agree with your comments. I mentioned this guy because he is such an exception to the rule. I'm still in touch with him. And regarding your comment, "All the psychotic and neurotic personalities you read about in psych books are present in this field..." A few months back when posters recommended the book "Mobbing: Emotional Abuse in the American Workplace," I bought the book and read it. The description of the personality type of a typical "mobber" describes attorneys to a "T," in my opinion. I have witnessed only one mobbing incident in this field, however.