Chiropractor VS. Spa - Which do you work at and why?

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Knead2Relax in Mukwonago, Wisconsin

57 months ago

sheri in Lake Worth, Florida said: well you are one of those Therapist that allows a Chiro to take advantage of our skills. Wow he raised your pay to 15,when he collects triple that. Hold your head up high and know how you should be treated.

She said that was for 25 min treatments, which puts her at $30/hour, which sounds pretty good as an employee especially if they're keeping her busy one client after another. I was getting $19.50/hour massage, but few clients and almost never back to back so I'd be there 1 1/2 hours w/ linen change and ariving early, paperwork etc, for only 1 hour of pay. If the massage was only half hour I'd only get 1/2 hour of pay even tho I was there for an hour. Wouldn't have been too bad if there was back to back clients.

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Rose Masters in Redondo Beach, California

57 months ago

I just got off the phone with the Chrio i have been working for - I have been there at her office since the end of Jan.2010 our arrangement was that she would advertise - supply all - other then the lotion i use, now she failed to mention that the room she wanted me to work in was completely bare other than a massage table, she did not want to get linen from a service she wanted to get her own, So ok that would mean she had to wash them as well, So now she let me know if i wanted a seat or shelves or any thing like to play music i would need to get it myself, So today she was upset because i told her Three weeks ago i would have Jury duty this week and next week i was going to start a Part time job with the census department - She feels i should be available to work when ever she calls, in the past few months i have worked per week one day i might have 3 people and then i might have 1 on another day, so per week it might be 4 to 5 massages and some weeks there is nothing, in our conversation today she had the nerve to tell me that i haven't brought in anyone on my own, I did remind her that she based my pay on the fact that she would be advertising and this has not happened So she told me if i wanted to be busies there i should go out and get clients - OOOO big mistake i told her if i wanted to go out and find clients to build a practice i would not be working in someone else office and giving them more then half of the fee.... Well she then told me that she would have to get some one else to work there doing massage if im not going to be able to come in when she calls... I did tell her to go right ahead and get someone else, Well then her tone changed, She then said well think about it and call her back....

So what is it they teach these people in Chrio school that makes them come out and act like they should be able to take advantage of others....

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Julie Houff in Lake Forest Park, Washington

56 months ago

Somehow my original message got erased so to recap in a very short nutshell version: Does 20/hour 22/hour after 6 months with sharing cleaning duties at a chiro for a 1000hr LMP grad sound reasonable. I was thinking more like 25-30/hr to start. He bills at $130/insurance and 75 cash and others. Any comments?

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Rose Masters in Redondo Beach, California

56 months ago

Im not clear on your Post...

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Julie Houff in Lake Forest Park, Washington

56 months ago

Boy, I WAS in a rush. I will be interviewing with a chiro tomorrow.

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Julie Houff in Lake Forest Park, Washington

56 months ago

Rose: Was it my post you had a question on? If you repost your questions, I can get back to you.

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The Facts in Los Angeles, California

56 months ago

sheri in Lake Worth, Florida said: well you are one of those Therapist that allows a Chiro to take advantage of our skills. Wow he raised your pay to 15,when he collects triple that. Hold your head up high and know how you should be treated.

Most Chiropractic office starting from 2008 and some even early have been having trouble collecting for masssage codes because insurance companies are no longer paying for this type of treatment,unless the doctor can prove through their exam and treatment notes that massage would be helpful for the patient's condition. If not, the insurance companies will deem the service medical unnecessary and will demand the money back! In addition the Chiropractic offfice are being forced to lower their hourly cash rate for massage between $25.00 to $45.00 because of the over populated stand alone therapy bussiness which pop up and have rates lower than what was the standard,included various forms of massage bussiness. Most paitents that go to chiropractic offices for massage are not the same type of person that goes to a high end spa, these people are all bule collar pay check to pay check type of people and dont't have alot of money. Chiropractors have no choice but to pay MT less since these people already want everything for free or believe that their insurance should pay for all their services. Sample, Blue Cross pays their out of network Chiroparctors $25.00 for the entire treatment regarless of specfic therapies given which can include chiroparctic, massage and physical therapy and or ACN American Chiropractic Network dotors get paid about the same with twice the required paper work. Even prior to this strigent practice by insurance companies. Massage therapy given at a Chiroparcctic practices to patient was precieved by the patients as part of their $5.00 or $10.00 dollar co-pay. Therfore, with over 15 yrs as a medical biller I can say that most Chiro offices pay what ins. and the general public are willing to pay.

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Confused in Sacramento, California

56 months ago

I work in a chiro office and we're thinking about bringing on a massage therapist for 2-3 days a week. We wouldn't provide any of the materials, because we've never had a MT before and wouldn't even know what to get! Would a MT prefer to be paid hourly, or paid per massage? If it's per massage, what percentage would you say is fair? Is it unreasonable to expect a MT to provide their own materials?

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Confused in Sacramento, California

56 months ago

I work in a chiro office and we're thinking about bringing on a massage therapist for 2-3 days a week. We wouldn't provide any of the materials, because we've never had a MT before and wouldn't even know what to get! Would a MT prefer to be paid hourly, or paid per massage? If it's per massage, what percentage would you say is fair? Is it unreasonable to expect a MT to provide their own materials?

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Rehab tech in Hollywood, Florida

54 months ago

Well Most places in Florida pay by the hour and not per hour session. I personally hate spas,they pay only per massage.I got my LMT license because I like the physical rehab field,you want to get paid 15 to 20 hourly(just for being there) get into rehab,or find a chiro or PT that doesn't have a "spa-like" system,no linens or lotion. Medical field typically pays hourly,but yes you still have some few places that will pay you a percent or per patient,but that is pretty much disappearing. Best thing to do is you find someone paying like that don't take the job and wait to find the pay you're worth,and still 15 an hour is little pay compare what these chiros or doctors are billing,I have seen huge offices that me lots of money paying only 13 an hour and smaller offices paying 20 an hour,so yes there are greedy doctors out there,the only way we can win is not to take these jobs in the end. so you see a chiro who has the nerve to pay $10 an hour or per massage,don't take their offer and make them suffer till they raise there pay and realize what you're worth. But unfortunately there are people who need to work and will take anything. But yeah here in Florida many places pay you by the hour and you'll make a steady check in the end,I guess some places are taking notice LMTs want to get paid by the hour.

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chiropractor in King Of Prussia, Pennsylvania

54 months ago

Sally in West Palm Beach, Florida said: I hear ya and that is why I don't deal with insurance or crooked chiropracters!

crooked chiropractor not chiropracter

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Leslie in Mansfield, Texas

54 months ago

so i just came from a interview with a job and it seemed to go great except im not sure if it was right for me;
when i came in they had me fill out paper work then wait for ten minutes,
then they moved me to a private room were they had me wait for another ten minutes
when the chiropractor finally came she interviewed me extremely quickly
didn't even completely fill me in on all the expectations the only thing she mentioned was that the table and lotions and sheets were provided by them and nothing else was mentioned i had to ask about pay and dress code i had more questions but she hurried off and then said i was to massage her secretary (chair massage) to see my massage strokes after agreeing and went to massage the secretary the chiropractor didn't even bother to enter to see my strokes or say goodbye when i was done i didn't really know what had happened; i don't know if she really is interested in my massage or me or the fact that i was able to massage
i mean the pay sounded decent she stated that they had 12/half hour and 50/per week as a flat pay rate plus tips
im not all too sure since this would be my first massage therapist job any advice
or do you think they sound too busy to really care about their therapist?

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Rose Masters in Redondo Beach, California

54 months ago

I would say Find another place to work in general Chrio's are Flakes and this one sounds like she is an extrem flake,

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ky massage therapist in Madisonville, Kentucky

53 months ago

I completely agree with dsamp's posting.
Working for a chiropractor can be more trouble than it is worth.

The one I worked for paid us a flat $14/hr for 15 - 23 minute deep tissue/trigger point work massages (1 and 2 units respectively) over clothing, one after the other, with no time in between to rest. We would average between 12 - 20 massages per day, and when we weren't working (if it was slow) we were expected to help out with office work. If there was no office work, we'd get the evil eye from our good dr. or perhaps be asked to clock out early. And let's not forget all the free coupons he was giving out for free massages on top of legitimate patients. Basically what he is running is a sweatshop for massage therapists! The full-timers were always hurting and not too happy. For what we were being paid, even with certain bonuses, it was not worth the wear and tear, imo.

8 massages per week on my own more than surpasses what I made hanging out at the chiropractor's for 16 hours/week. More importantly, I am no longer in pain.

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Gabi in Kansas in Manhattan, Kansas

53 months ago

I came across this site while looking into different areas where MT's work. I've been trying to contact differnt MT's in my area to ask them questions about schools and the work force but none have had time to talk with me. I am about to graduate with a B.S. in Kinesiology and Human Nutrition and I want to go on to Massage Therapy School. Any recommendations on good schools, or how to go about finding good schools? I am definatly not above moving, I was actually thinking about going to Florida for school. I am open to any comments or suggestons!!

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Alexis In San Diego Ca in Allen, Texas

53 months ago

Michelle in North Hollywood, California said: HELLO EVERYONE, I'M IN CALIFORNIA AND I JUST COMPLETED A NINE-MONTH MASSAGE THERAPY PROGRAM AND I FEEL AS IF I DON'T KNOW WHICH DIRECTION TO GO.....I STILL NEED MY LICENSE FOR L.A CITY WHICH NOW COSTS ABOUT $400(I AM WORKING ON GATHERING THE $$$ DUE TO ONLY WORKING PART-TIME)DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY ADVICE ???? i REALLY WOULD LOVE TO WORK IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE I KNOW I AM HELPING PEOPLE AND HAVE A PURPOSE

Hi Michelle, one of the downfalls to working in california is the fact that you litterally have to get a license for EVERY city you work in. I'm an HHP working in San Diego out of a chiroptractor's office. I don't know if the the fact that I'm an HHP matters but I only had to pay $20 to get a business license. You may want to get in contact with your city's business license rep and ask on the cost.

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mela in Fort Worth, Texas

53 months ago

Patricia Ercolano in Knoxville, Tennessee said: I am a nurse and was thinking about getting my massage license,and working for a spa or high end hair salon,then going out on my own and still continuing to practice as a nurse unless the road leads me somewhere else.Any advice?

you should go with a chiropractor since you're a nurse and with the license it puts you above the other people seeking the same job you should go work for a chiropractor part time and go to school then you get to know the job and then gradually take over the massage part other wanting a complete change of work i dont see the reason why you would go to a spa or salon.

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Jonathan in Bolivar, Missouri

53 months ago

Hi,
I'm trained in an ancient Native American body work that uses massage and stretching techniques for pain relief. How would I go about presenting this sort of work to a center? Any advice would be much appreciated. I'm young and highly motivated, but need my nose pointed down the right direction...thanks.

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ronald mills in Bakersfield

53 months ago

Hi,

I'm a medical student in California city. I'm looking forward to do masters in Internal medicine. At this juncture, I've heard about chiropractors in California.. I wanna become a chiropractic specialist rather then working in a SPA.

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Rose Masters in Manhattan Beach, California

53 months ago

Can you elaborate -- and where did you lean this, Are you A massage T...

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Tylerfenix in Fort Lauderdale, Florida

52 months ago

FloridaLMT in Hialeah, Florida said: Well i had a bad experience going to a chiro, he offered me 9.00 an hour said he had great clients everyday about 50 hours a week of work. when i told him that i am licensed and that 9 an hour is very low said that he can pick any person off the street to do my work for 8 an hour. that since he is a chiro he can have massage therapist that does not have a license to work for him. he also said the same thing for his physical therapist... Also said that if i worked for him he would give me training on what a PT does. But this to me is out of the scope of practice for me and could cause harm to someone.

I would be very careful with a guy like that! He sounds shady and abusive. The fact that he came back at you with a comment about finding "anyone off the street" at a lower rate proves to me that he is an abuser (having many years experience in abusive relationships and self defense) and that he will coerce and manipulate you. Please do not say yes to him. Stand up for your license because what he is asking and offering, in the State of Florida, is definitely ILLEGAL. Do not light his doorway again! Refer to your own schooling in this matter and the law CEU's we are required by the state to take each year.

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Tylerfenix in Fort Lauderdale, Florida

52 months ago

Confused in Sacramento, California said: I work in a chiro office and we're thinking about bringing on a massage therapist for 2-3 days a week. We wouldn't provide any of the materials, because we've never had a MT before and wouldn't even know what to get! Would a MT prefer to be paid hourly, or paid per massage? If it's per massage, what percentage would you say is fair? Is it unreasonable to expect a MT to provide their own materials?

Some secretaries get paid only 10-15 dollars and hour too. Do you ask them to bring their own Computers, copiers, fax machines, ink, pencils, pens, paper, clips, and so on? That is not near enough to be motivated to bring anything of your own. That's like teachers supplying their own stuff for the students wit such low pay. Now if you pay us what we are worth and a little more then I for one would be glad to bring at least my table. Linens must be cleaned, like every medical setting to the standards of each state. In Florida, we are licensed through the State and the D.O.H. We did not just start rubbing oil on people. We had to attend and pay for school just like the doctors, though not quite as much or as long. We still must attend State Required CEU classes which we must pay for. I know it is different from state to state, but the LMT's I know are hoping to change that and make it better for us. I am all for a Union but until that happens we need to stand up for ourselves. So providing our own materials depends on what you as a DC are offering. We as LMT's must be savvy and business minded too.
Look at it this way, I charge $90.00 per 60 min. massage. I go to the clients home. I have little overhead. I bring my table and linens and lotion and whatever else I may need. Afterwards, I pay $3.00 per load of linens at my laundry facility, which is a tax right off! my lotion costs 60 or so per gallon bottle. My table cost over $500. Are you willing to pay me $90 per hour? If so, I may be willing!

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Tylerfenix in Fort Lauderdale, Florida

52 months ago

Now hopefuly onto better things. I am Looking in Fort Lauderdale for PT assistant or Chiro assistant. I would like to know if anyone has experience in the area of PT assistant. I know to become a PT takes more schooling, and I may be into that, but I wonder if a LMT can assist without a PT License in Florida. Ill check with my friend on the State board but she is away for a while longer and I would like to send out some resumes specifically for this position. It would be a bonus to work under a PT while going to school to school to become one. I am interested in going more towards the Medical arena and less "feel good" stuff. I like both. Thanks for any replies and please disregard the Anger Monger from before. I m going on a different pathway.

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carmen fugate in Terrell, Texas

52 months ago

Just passed my State exam. I have worked in a hospital for over 15 years and would like to do massage in a medical setting. I love to massage and work with the neck muscles and trapezius.

I don't think i would like doing the Sedish Massage throughout my career (BORING)! I want to benefit my clientale in making a difference with their overall health with Massage.

Thanks for your help.

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socali

51 months ago

I have been a MT for 11yrs,and i love it!I have to say though it has been challenging physically. Working fulltime will eventually take it's toll.Pacing yourself ,whether working for a spa,or chiro.I started to feel like a work horse,then backed off from the field to take a break.Remember you can not give 100% if you dont feel 100% yourself. I currently work for an awesome chiro.and i love it!!!

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Michelle in Battle Creek, Michigan

50 months ago

Hi. Are there any Massage Therapist in Michigan who can give some insight on the earnings in Chiropractor Office as a M.T.. Also, how can I find out how much is an allowable billing to the insurance company from the DC for Massage Therapy. During an interview, is it acceptable to ask the DC how much they bill for from the insurance company. I am brand new-fresh out of school. Thx for the help.

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Sharon in Dallas, Texas

50 months ago

For those of you who work in a chiropractor's office, I have a question. Does anyone know if it is illegal to remove massage intake forms from the office if you are working as an independent contractor?

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DC in Chicago, Illinois

49 months ago

About Michigan...I would assume it would be a self pay (cash) fee for Massage in a DC'S office since it is outside the scope of practice for a DC to do much other than adjust/manipulate...so just ask what they charge.

To clarify massage billing to insurance...
A)It is should mostly be/usually done with either one of the following 2 CPT codes
97140 (myofascial release) or
97124 (massage: efflerage, pettrasage, tapoement)
(please reference the AMA to get detialed definitions)

B) They are also billed in units(of time)
1 unit- 8 to 22 min
2 units-23 to 37 min
3 units-38 to 52 min
4 units-53 to ....you get the idea

C) Each unit that is billied to insurance co. does not necessarily mean:
1) reimbursement is recieved (does the ins co limit the number of units billed on a certain day, is it medically necessary(service is denied),etc...)
2) the office collects what is billed (contracts with ins companies, never paid due to a failed PI case, etc...)

So in my opinion to ask a DC what they bill is irrelavant...

There are two basic alternatives to working as an MT
1) Independant Contractor- run your own business, more risk for more possible reward($)
2) Employee- less risk for less reward but should be much more stable (hrs/wages)(obviously dependant on who you work for)

so Ask....Will you be classified as a Independant contractor (your own boss) or employee(see IRS regulations)

As an employee:
1) what hourly wage will you recieve for doing massage
2) is there a different wage for downtime (present but not massaging)
3) what else is required of me (which may change from time to time)
are good starting points

Also as an employee, you should be told when to show up (not have to supply anything but your skills & personality)and leave.....

Hope this helps

Each senerio has different

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ChiroLMT in Sarasota, Florida

47 months ago

I work for a chiropractor in Florida. It's $15/hour for about 40 hours per week. I do therapeutic massages of 1-2 units each for 15-20 patients a day. I also stretch patients and teach rehab exercises. When I'm not with a patient I do everything from take the trash out to clean the mirrors to file to help verify insurance. Anyone who can answers the phone, schedules appointments, etc.

I'm an employee. I get holiday pay, one week of vacation after a year, no sick time, no insurance. The doctor provides everything. Table, linens, washer/dryer and soap, cleaning supplies, lotion, etc. I'm paid for special events outside of "normal working hours". I have to stay late if a patient is running late, and sometimes come in early if that's the only time a patient can come. I'm the only therapist on staff and it's a small office. I also get free spinal manipulations. I rarely ever get tipped. (Maybe $30 over the past six months.)

Would I like to make more money? Yes. A lot of therapists in my area make more. HOWEVER, the majority of the therapists I know don't get paid when they aren't with clients. Most of these therapists work at 2-3 offices (chiropractic, salon, spa, or private practice) and have to juggle schedules. Or, they make a lot of money 4-5 months out of the year when it's season, but then struggle the rest of the year. Having a steady paycheck from one location that values me is worth making a few dollars less. There are a lot of "high burn out" positions here... I'd rather make slightly less and save my career for years to come.

Do I mind taking the trash out? Not at all. When you are a part of a team you do what needs to be done. I don't believe in job descriptions. If the doctor's running behind I wipe off his table and change the face paper because I know it's going to make the day run more smoothly. He often does little things for me as well, like put laundry in the dryer if I can't get to it.

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JE in Seattle, Washington

47 months ago

@ DC in Chicago, Illinois

I agree, asking the question about what a DC bills to insurance is not very productive to anyone. However, may I ask a question that may have more meaning:

What is your expected or average net payment to you from each average billed amount to insurance? If your average billed amount is 125.00 per patient massage session (at my last office it was 130.00/hour) and your average actually received is 120.00. It's pretty basic math. Tax forms and end of year office tally's also have the figures to estimate all this. You probably already have the figures already if you've been in business for a couple of years. If so, you could just give the percentage amount of your average net return on a massage session that you pay an LMP.

LMP's it's helpful for you to ask an employer the above last question. Make life easier for yourselves. Massage is darn hard work, don't allow yourselves to get confused or abused.

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Darren in Rogers, Minnesota

47 months ago

Massage Advantage solves a world of massage employment issues. They are located exclusively in chiropractic offices and pay MT's twice the wages as most franchises. Their program is also designed to help the doctor build their practice all while offering discounted massage prices to the public. It's the best win,win,win in the massage market.

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JE in Seattle, Washington

47 months ago

Darren in Rogers, Minnesota said: Massage Advantage solves a world of massage employment issues. They are located exclusively in chiropractic offices and pay MT's twice the wages as most franchises. Their program is also designed to help the doctor build their practice all while offering discounted massage prices to the public. It's the best win,win,win in the massage market.

So if Massage Envy pays about 15/hour (the same amount I was paid as a housecleaner over 20 years ago, BTW), then your agency makes sure the LMP gets paid about 30/hour. Sounds better, however, I would still expect more since we know that Massage is billed for up to 130 dollars/hour by the Chiros. I would guess that they would net at least 85-100 average/hour over time and then could pay the therapists at least 50-60% of their net. Still sounds like nickel and diming for darn hard skilled labor that tends to cause injury and/or burn out, esp when some therapists attempt to make up for the fact that LMP hands-on work is meant to be a 15-20 hour
a week part of the job, by adding on hours when they should rest their bodies. If LMPs were paid more what they are worth- there would be less injury and burnout and everyone would be happy. All the chiros I know out here pay less than a quarter of what they earn off of massage. This is abuse! LMP's are getting injured left and right and are in pain. What can you do to help this problem? Make sue you find out how much the chiros actually make off of massage, then decide what to recommend as reasonable pay. You can be allies of both the chiros AND the LMP's not just the public-with discounted massage and-and the chiros. Who ever heard of discounted healthcare. Besides the chiros know that many folks get more out of a well done massage session than just from chiro alone. The chiros if left unchecked will abuse and try to over profiteer. Too many LMP's are not quite up on this yet, not until they get injured.

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MaxMT in Modesto, California

47 months ago

I am glad to see the voice of reality. I am not sure why we MTs think that after 500 hours of training we should be able to make 30 an hour in someone's business where they take all the risk.

Supply and demand sucks for us right now, but this is the profession we chose. You can make a million bucks in what ever you decide to do but it will involve more then a part time work week.

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MaxMT in Modesto, California

47 months ago

Another massage therapist where I work was going to ask for 30 dollars from the doctor who provides EVERYTHING for us including advertising. Some of her instructors were advising her on how to get "what she is worth". She is now unemployed and the line to replace her goes all the way down the street. 25k a year is not bad for only working 25 hours a week. Add to that at least 5500 a year in tips. I am not saying that what we do is not necessary and extremely valuable for every person on the planet, but the truth is I didn't go to school for 8 years. I am not a doctor. Why should I expect to live like one, especially if I only work 1/2 of a regular work week.

Our demanding what we haven't earned makes the profession look foolish. When there are less of us, the compensation will increase. This is why nurses make so much money. They are only trained to follow orders. They cannot treat, diagnose, prescribe meds, or perform anything that they are not told to do. They make a lot of money because schools limit the number of graduates each year. That puts the demand higher then the supply. Then you have a nurse (medical technician) earning more then the training and education truly command. This is brilliant. MTs are being turned out in such large numbers that we have done this to ourselves. As a profession, lets begin to limit the number of graduates in our schools and the demand will increase and so will the pay. Of course this will require a significant increase in tuition because that will slow down the production of MTs.

It is a solid, long term, effective plan.

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Darren in Rogers, Minnesota

47 months ago

I'm all for someone earning as much as they can, but reality is reality. There is a limit that the market will pay for the service. We have put together a program that comes as close to meeting the demands of each party as I've ever seen, but unfortunately it's impossible to make everyone happy.

We welcome all suggestions and even critical reviews as this is how we have built what will be the largest and stongeset massage program in the US.

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JE in Seattle, Washington

47 months ago

Darren in Rogers, Minnesota said: I'm all for someone earning as much as they can, but reality is reality. There is a limit that the market will pay for the service. We have put together a program that comes as close to meeting the demands of each party as I've ever seen, but unfortunately it's impossible to make everyone happy.

We welcome all suggestions and even critical reviews as this is how we have built what will be the largest and stongeset massage program in the US.

Darren and Max:

Yes, there are many different ways to measure all this- years in school, amount paid for schooling, risk of the business, risk of injury, the market, we could go on an on with all these variables. Let's keep things easier here, by starting with the irrefutable numbers- by speaking in terms of net profit of what chiros earn and what the percentage they pay of that to LMTs. Then we can move on to the variables. If you cannot answer that, then this discussion will only be confusing and not reach any substantive conclusion.

I'll start. Here the chiros bill 120.00- 130.00/hr massage. Frankly, they are very hush hush about what they net or profit. Keep in mind their chiro schooling is unrelated to hiring massage therapists. They have their main business, and they have a side business- owning a massage business. Spas seem to be more open about pay percentages. They pay about 60% of their net profit. If chiros are being good business folks, they know exactly what percentage of their net profit they pay MTs. Does anyone know a chiro who will not hide these easy to find out facts and is willing to post these facts (please- no need to post the name of the chiro- if they are open and have a good rate, I'm sure they would be inundated with calls from interested MTs)

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Darren in Minneapolis, Minnesota

47 months ago

I actually was the CEO for the largest private clinic group in MN for almost 8 years. So im very familiar to the fee schedules of a lot of chiro's. Not only that my company operates in 12 states currenly and I consult with chiro's in over 30. The only way I see anyone billing that kind of rate $120-$130 is on personal injury cases. Now to keep this in perspective the Chiro with over $200,000.00 invested in education MUST be the one to prescribe massage in order ti bill that rate, they also MUST oversee the treatment of the patient. Then they must submit to insurance and wait to collect. This in many cases amounts to years to ever complete the collection process, and even then there is a huge possibility they will need to accept less for the services provided then what was billed. Now I have never met and MT willing to wait for payment like the doctor often must. So is it a fair trade off to get paid on Friday for the massage provided on Monday at a lower rate while the doctor must wait months or even years to collect? Greed says "pay me now and pay me big", reality says those with the greatest risk earn the biggest reward.

People can argue you about or should I say disagree about anything anytime, but when it comes right down to it the doctor doesnt want to do the job of the MT and the MT is not educated enough to do what the doctor does. I'm sure most nurses would like to make as much as 50%-60% of the physician, but reality says. "It aint gonna happen"!

If you are unable or unwilling to accept a reasonable or fare wage for your services then do something else. I'm only here to help explain what I see and know to be true and the fact that for all those upset about how they are used, abused, and taken advantage of that there is other options. Those other options might not pay someone what they feel they are worth, but dont most people feel they are underpaid for their efforts?

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MaxMT in Modesto, California

47 months ago

I can get a copy of an explanation of benefits from an insurance company from my doctor. It is for one 15 minute segment. If you would like to see it, I will try to see if I can post it on my facebook or even the doctors facebook page. So, I performed the massage, the doctor recommended it, and billed for it, payed me, and didn't get paid. He said that this is one of the "good" insurances too. Email me at fornosonly@hotmail.com and I will send you a copy of the EOB. Put EOB in the subject line.

I am glad to help everyone understand that just because it is billed, doesn't mean it is paid.

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JE in Seattle, Washington

47 months ago

Mr CEO for chiros - not MT's- I'm still waiting for data. And,yes there is a reason why I don't work for chiros- you are one of the reasons. Beside why do you think the nurses union has to be so diligent to keep "fair" wages. Why don't you work for the MT's? Even though there are more of us than chiros, probably because they have no money left to pay a union and even they did, I'll bet folks like you would lobby against it.

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JE in Seattle, Washington

47 months ago

Max: My issue is not over whether a MT gets paid or not when the chiro does not get paid per massage session hour. My issue is over the % rate the chiro pays an MT from their total net pay received and that goes to the chiros bank account. No one has any idea??? Come on, lets just ask and eventually we will find out. Then we can discuss the variables and how they affect the MT pay.

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Darren in Minneapolis, Minnesota

47 months ago

JE,
Your condescending, disrespectful remarks speak volumes for your regard for  the profession. You reek of ignorance, and can't accept information from those in the know. I was in fact part of the Chiro industry, but today run one of the fastest growing massage operations helping therapist nationwide. I have placed and employed hundreds of therapist in my 10 years in the industry, and they are the number one reason I build the business model I operate today. So before you pick a fight with someone, know your facts.

Other than to stir drama there is no meaningful benefit to your insistence that any doctor l
should disclose there compensation schedules. You want to now what the billable service are go buy a cpt coding book and look them up. Either way it's irrelevant as your not accepting any responsibility inside the doctors offices. Your nurses don't get to base their pay off what the doctor bills? So if your not ok with the level of compensation DON'T DO THE JOB! 

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JE in Seattle, Washington

47 months ago

I'm not picking a fight, I'm just trying to get some facts. Why are you getting you feathers all ruffled up about that? Who's getting dramatic here? But, you don't know the facts I asked for. Just say you don't have those facts. I am happy with my level of compensation so I will do my job, thank you. And I don't need a chiropractor in order to get paid. If I ever find one who can pay what I earn elsewhere- great!
If I ever find one who will pay me an average of over 35 bucks an hour- great! I'll likely work some spare hours there. So far there is no sign anywhere around here of a chiro paying over 25 bucks an hour in the expensive area I live in. Under, yes, but not over. Your area must be doing better than average- Great!

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ChiroLMT in Sarasota, Florida

46 months ago

At our office the only insurance (aside from PI cases) that reimburses us anything for 97140 is Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Each unit of therapy (8-22m) in our office is billed at $45. We get just over $22.

That means that for one hour of manual therapy (which we don't do at our office, we do 1-2 units max/visit/patient) we get about $90. They pay us, usually, pretty quickly, at least within 60 days.

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Sonia in Cabot, Arkansas

46 months ago

What if you don't mind me asking are you collecting on your "cash" massages? Do you offer cash or only PI/ major medical?

You said you bill $45 per unit but only collect $22 per? So about $88, and are you collecting that on ever case?

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ChiroLMT in Sarasota, Florida

46 months ago

We rarely ever (and I mean maybe 1-2 in a month) do any "massage", and that's usually only 30 minutes. Cash price for that code is $20/unit (which would be $80/hour if we did an hour, which we don't.)

BCBS pays about $22 per unit and we "adjust" the remainder off under our contract with them.

For the manual therapy (the 97140) we bill $45 for cash patients (or patients whose benefits do not cover that code, which is most of them). In that case we usually do just one unit per visit.

We do PI cases. If they have insurance benefits it's a little longer for payment, it seems, but not nearly as long as if we have to wait for a settlement. If you've ever billed PI you know they usually try to pay you at a different rate, argue that it's contractual, etc. They try to get "cute" on you and if you don't know the rules, a lot of time an inexperienced front desk billing person will go along with it. We fight for the payment, and usually get the 80% that the insurance will cover. Sometimes they'll have the other 20% covered by either health insurance (if they cover those codes) or the other person's insurance. I'm not a billing person, so I can't give you much more than that on the PI.

I'd say that if we do 30 units of therapy per day, 10 will be BCBS ($22/$45), 10 will be covered only in part (the rest being patient responsibility, this would be a different code then 97140, usually 97110, paid 40-60%), and 10 will be "cash" (no insurance, still paying towards deductible, etc.)

We usually get about 50-60% of what we actually bill for our services. If the average patient has $140 worth of services in a visit, we try to collect about $80.

Does that help?

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Sonia

46 months ago

Yes it does. Thank you very much for the info.

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BBB823 in Scottsdale, Arizona

46 months ago

therapistinga in Atlanta, Georgia said: I currently work for both a chiropractor and a spa. I am an independant contractor at the chiro's office and I make $43 and hour. I supply my own linens and lotion and I set my own hours. At the spa, I typically make $30/hr + $5-20 gratuity/service. I sometimes get tips at the chiro but not very often.
The atmosphere at the spa is more soothing and relaxed. The chirporactic massage is more intense and physically demanding.

If you get this... Or anyone else that can help, I'd appreciate it... When you're working as an independent therapist in a chiropractors office, do you have to handle the insurance billing if they have insurance coverage, or does a general secretary/office personell handle it. And do you pay rent or anything to the chiropractor? There has to be some insentive for the chiropractor, otherwise why would they have you there, lol. Let me know... Anyone... :) Thanks! I'm looking to start massage school in a couple months, so I was just looking at my options. & I'm in Florida, not Arizona, that just generates automatically on my computer... Thanks again!

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bexon22 in Castries, Saint Lucia

46 months ago

Hi, in respond to your question about rent and a percent to the chiro...I believe there should be an agreement between you and the physician, if no question comes up you shouldn't worry about it,since you are not receiving direct payment from the patients, but be sure that you are up to date with things like taxes and other procedure that you should follow.

Liz

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bexon22 in Castries, Saint Lucia

46 months ago

Hi, I haven't been here for a while...does anyone heard about Far Infrared sauna? well I bought one for my practice last Sept and it works pretty well, my clients love it. I believe it's a good investment for a massage practice. If anyone is thinking of adding some other treatment to their practice try the Far Infrared Sauna.

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Sonia in Cabot, Arkansas

46 months ago

bexon22 in Castries, Saint Lucia said: Hi, in respond to your question about rent and a percent to the chiro...I believe there should be an agreement between you and the physician, if no question comes up you shouldn't worry about it,since you are not receiving direct payment from the patients, but be sure that you are up to date with things like taxes and other procedure that you should follow.

Liz

Do yourself a HUGE favor and talk to the folks at Massage Advantage before you make a move. They are experts in working with Massage and Chiropractic. You want to be an employee of the practice for tons of reasons: Like you will be covered under the “Practice of Medicine” law whereby you have greater protection from liability, you will have Work Comp in the event you get hurt and can’t work, you will have no overheard, you will have minimum marketing while you build your base. You base will be build 100x faster with their systems, and you receive coaching that has significant value in your future success. Anyone who tells you they don’t need support or coaching is either naive or ignorant. This is by far the strongest Massage Therapist/Clinic program I’ve ever seen and they are growing faster than any other massage business in the market today. Oh and you will earn top pay while working alongside a doctor.. Ya check it out a heck of gig especially if you just looking to get started.

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