Is RC 3-11 only starting investigation in July 2012?

Or is it allowing massage therapists, athletic trainers, and aids to do therapy in July 2012?

I'm really interested in this rc 3-11... How will that effect the PTA job market and salary? It doesn't sound good and I'm trying to get into a PTA program now.

Right now it allows them to start in July unless the recommendations are changed or shelved before then (which they still can be). The investigation will be ongoing for the next year I do believe. See here for more info:

www.apta.org/Policies/Updates/2011FAQ/

You can read about consequences and eventual actions to be taken on Austin College - PTA program facebook page called "Attention all PTAs...if you've never worried about job security, now is a good time to start."

I am confused and need someone knowledgable to answer my question please. I am a career changer with a bachelors degreee. I am just starting the PTA program because it seems like a career that actually has job openings. Now I here about all these reimbursement cuts and limiting the scope of practice. I can't go through college again just to hit another brick wall. Does someone know what the real changes are going to look like for PTAs? Is it just hype or will there be significant decreases in salary and limits on the range of PTA practice?

Kay, are you starting Gulf Coast State's program in the fall? I'm pre-DMS at GCS and really thinking of changing lanes to the PTA program due to the lack of jobs in the field. This topic has added an entire new layer of uncertainty to my questions...looking forward to (and bracing for) the responses in this thread!

The task force was just appointed for this committee. A quick glance is not encouraging. There isn't a single PTA that is a member of the chosen committee. Not one. I fear this does not bode well. Anyone with concerns should consider politely contacting one or more of these committee members directly and let your feelings known that patients cannot be treated appropriately by non-experts in the field.

Here is the list of appointees:

www.apta.org/VolunteerGroups/TaskForce/RCs411Thru1211/

Actually there is one PTA member - Bob Worden. Plus Rebecca McKnight is a director of PTA program. Nonetheless it doesn't seem well.
Future PTA in Gilbert, Arizona you are right that PTA or future PTA should get involved.
Here are some thoughts from Lynne Hughes, Texas Chief Delegate to the House of Delegates, about what PTAs can do (taken from the Austin College - PTA program facebook page):
"PTAs need to be watching what the APTA Board of Directors does in response to the charge to develop these new models of service delivery. The Board has already sent out a call to members to volunteer for a task force to identify potential models of delivery of service. Once these task force members have been appointed in the next few months, PTAs will need to monitor their progress and provide input by calling and emailing the members of the task force. Suggestions can also be made directly to the APTA Board.
When the task force brings forward its recommendations, then it is time to talk to your Texas delegates that represent you at the APTA House of Delegates. Let the delegates know how you feel and why you do or do not support the recommendations. The majority of the Texas delegation is up for election or re-election this year. Please give careful consideration to the individuals who will represent you. Voting records for the 2010 and 2011 HOD are available on the TPTA website under ‘membership/leadership’ and ‘2011 delegates’. Members elect district delegates, delegates at-large, and the chief delegate. Others avenues to discuss this issue are at district meetings and at the Texas Assembly in October.
Please get involved and make your voice heard. You do not have the right to complain if you don't vote and participate. You can't change an organization if you don't belong to it."

Yep, I will be joining the APTA here just as soon as I start school here next month. They will be made to know that my support is contingent on theirs.

While I did miss the one (seemingly token) PTA, the fact is that this board is stacked from top to bottom with Private Practice owners (I know, I looked them up)62. I have a sick feeling the end game here has already been predetermined. We need to be heard on this over the next year, loud and often.

Oh, and also I should add that the reason why I missed that one PTA is because he also has several advanced degrees and OWNS HIS OWN PRIVATE PRACTICE! That's right, the one PTA on the committee owns his own practice. I don't know the guy, and would certainly hope that the basic common sense notion that untrained professions can't treat patients is going to win out over monetary considerations.

You can view Bob Wordon's bio here:

www.pinnaclephysicaltherapy.com/bob.htm

can someone please explain this rc3-11 in laymans terms, thanks.

I think the APTA has been clear that they plan to protect the DPT at any cost and evidently PTA's are going to be the cost. I just don't understand why we have been so tightly regulated (board exam, license, cont ed) but now anyone can do it. I can't see how if this stands it will not make the PTA obsolete??? It will definitely drive salaries way down. I don't even want to think about the quality of care.

So what Im getting from this is taht basically the APTA wants to hire massage therapists and athletic trainers to do the job of the PTA because they can pay them less. Then what will be the use of a PTA? :( What about PT Aides/Techs? How will they be utilized, if at all? Or will the massage therapists and athletic trainers take the place of the PT Aides/Techs?

And they are doing this cause to be a PT now you have to have a doctorate and they wanna pay them more for that and that is why they want to do it this way to cut costs. Is that correct?

I emailed Bob Worden from the committee and here's what he had to say. I didn't even think he would reply but his response was very thoughtful and encouraging:

As a member of the PTA caucus may I speak on behalf of the group…..we agree completely with your opinion. The task force has just formed and was asked to look into new forms of treatment teams that would be able to survive the declines in revenue while meeting the on going delivery of quality care.I was asked to represent the views of PTA’s which we feel still represent the highest quality care team with the PT. I WILL CERTAINLY REPRESENT THIS VIEWPOINT WE BOTH SHARE.This task force is purely exploratory and no rules of regulations have changed. This process was voted on by the house of delegates at this years annual meeting and the process is not one sided. Your views will be expressed. Your viewpoint is shared by my State Board of Directors. Please follow our progress on the PTA portal on the APTA web site as information becomes available. Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. Bob

^Cool! Glad to know we have at least one ally in this fight. Are you planning on contacting anyone else on the list? Maybe we can split the list or come up with a script to hit up the other members with. Something that will hopefully produce thoughtful responses like Bob's.

I know you posted his response, but I'd be curious to see the message you sent him that led to the response. Anyway, let me know if collaborating on this is something you'd be interested in and I can shoot you my e-mail address. I'm happy to help in any way I can.

DaveMan, what made you decide to email Bob?

Also, are you a PTA?

Future, sure I wouldn't mind sending out a few more emails or collaborating but I don't know where to find the other people's emails. My email basically just asked nicely about their opinion on the matter and also I asked if they really think people like massage therapists and physical trainers have the knowledge and training to perform PT. I also stated that it seems like the actions being considered sound like they are purely there to cut costs, and have no regard to the patients or the PTA's themselves.

Jeff, the only email I saw was Bob's which was found in this thread. He is also the only PTA on the board.

If anyone find's the other email addresses I'd be happy to forward some emails and post results here.

It would be of great assistance to recruit that gentleman, Bob Worden, or some other knowledgeable PTA/PA to format a letter that PTA’s, Student PTA’s and others could individualize but would have the “right” info and argument. If we had as many people that respond to this website to send letters or emails to the APTA and governing bodies we would have a better chance of our voice being heard with a united concise front.

^Hey Daveman, I think I can find most of them. Give me a day or two, and keep checking back here. Or I could e-mail them to you as well, so let me know if that's better and maybe we could shoot some things back and forth that way and then post the results here.

Hi All,

I wonder if having a bridging PTA-DPT program would make a nice addition to the new rules (if there're going to be any). At least, it would give other people options within the PT sphere. Otherwise, I really do not see how massage therapists and athletic trainers could perform PTAs' duties. How could one even compare a short-term certificate program of a massage therapist to a bachelor's degree of an athletic trainer?

I’m not very optimistic about bridging programs. Few years ago there were two available. Now only one left. APTA made it clear recently:
A PTA who decides to become a physical therapist is changing careers, not "advancing" from PTA to PT.
"Bridge" programs were developed when the PT degree was at the bachelor level. Since PT education has moved to the graduate level (master's and doctoral degrees), the undergraduate physical therapy course credits obtained in the PTA curriculum cannot be applied to a graduate program. There is one remaining "bridge" program.
www.apta.org/PTA/Careers/PTAtoPT/

JM in Foster City, California said: I’m not very optimistic about bridging programs. Few years ago there were two available. Now only one left.

Thank you, JM. Yes, I have read about the two school that were offering these programs. I guess I just don't see PTA as a disappearing field (program).

Seems like the biggest obstacle to fighting RC 3 11 is the lack of a common PTA voice.Is there any national PTA organization out there besides APTA? There are 60,000 PTA's plus out there, not counting students. I think PTA's in APTA, (where PTA's are the minority), are like 3000 to 4000?

APTA has been taking power away from the PTA's for awhile now. They know that if there isn't a big backlash from PTA's and others, this will probably pass. How can we get the word out??? This forum is great, but we need more avenues.

Join more PTA's on facebook to discuss RC 3 and other important issues.

www.facebook.com/groups/pta.professionals/

The group is open to PTA's only. No recruiting please.

I talked to PTA today and she said not to worry about it. They will fight and wont let it pass.

I talked to a PTA today and said to not worry about it. They will fight it and not let it pass.

T in San Diego,

I thought RC 3-11 was already passed and will take effect next year?

Hmm I will have to email her to clarify. Ill keep you guys posted!

The task force to study the proposals will be working on it throughout the year. The bill can be changed, modified, or scrapped altogether anytime before July of next year. Please folks, for the sake of your jobs get involved in this fight.

hey dave, I have to do an oxford debate for my PTA program concerning this topic. I am new to all this and really need some help. I am for keeping PTA's as the only ppl who can work with a PT. Can you guide me onto a great topic of debate and tell me where I can find supporting information. I live in Tennessee and it is already legal for others to provide services other than a PTA. The kicker is even alot of PTS didnt know this but now it is gonna come to light and who knows how this will effect the job market for PTAS now. I would greatly appreciate your help or help from anyone. I am running out of time.

I need help. I have to do an oxford debate covering what everyone is talking about. I am a first year PTA student and am having a difficult time comming up with a topic to debate and supporting information. I am for keeping only the PTA. Can anyone help me?

^Help you with what exactly? Coming up with things to say you mean? Why not talk about how PTA's are trained professionals, whereas supporting personnel aren't. Talk about how this would negatively impact patient treatment. You might also talk about it from a career perspective. How 60,000 PTA's in this country would be negatively impacted. It is one of the last truly middle class jobs in America, and having one less middle class refuge would obviously be a bad thing. Maybe talk about how PT's are looking out for the bottom line under the guise of "autonomy" and other words which basically mean, "we want to pay untrained professions less money to do the job trained professionals used to do." Talk about conflicts within the profession.

All sorts of different places you could go with it. Hope some of this helps!

Athletic Trainers are well-trained professionals.

Try this one on for size.. I took a manual therapy course this summer. An athletic trainer can take it without restriction. A PTA can only take the course IF a Physical Therapist in that office already has the training or takes the training at the same time..

Mike in Waterloo, Illinois said: Athletic Trainers are well-trained professionals.

Try this one on for size.. I took a manual therapy course this summer. An athletic trainer can take it without restriction. A PTA can only take the course IF a Physical Therapist in that office already has the training or takes the training at the same time..

Athletic training is awesome if you're working with athletes or people who have a simple strain / sprain, ortho problem. PTA's are educated in pathologies and how to deal with people with medical diseases, strokes, CVA. How to deal with a patient who is postop from a hip fracture or knee replacement, rotator cuff repair.

I'm in the second year right now and we are working really hard studying pathologies and neurology. And have had therapeutic massage, therapeutic exercises (working on that now too).

Not to say that you don't know your stuff but there is so much to learn. We have a couple of ATC in the class and other degrees, even kines majors and they are learning a lot too.

Just something to think about. Every one has a specialty.

Kim you're right about always having something to learn. What many (especially those who can belong to the APTA) mislead others is that they think athletic trainers can only do "simple rehab." And that just isn't true. We are more than capable of handling post-op patients as well. ACL surgery, rotator cuff surgery, labrum, etc.

There are parts of other rehabs that we're capable of handling as well. And working in conjunction with a PT, we would hold our own with a lot of orthopedic patients. Dealing with post-stroke patients, etc aren't something I'd be interested in doing. That's where working as a part of a team comes in. Each specialty has its importance and the athletic trainer would fit in great in a rehab team.

Mike in Waterloo, Illinois said: Kim you're right about always having something to learn. What many (especially those who can belong to the APTA) mislead others is that they think athletic trainers can only do "simple rehab." And that just isn't true. We are more than capable of handling post-op patients as well. ACL surgery, rotator cuff surgery, labrum, etc.

There are parts of other rehabs that we're capable of handling as well. And working in conjunction with a PT, we would hold our own with a lot of orthopedic patients. Dealing with post-stroke patients, etc aren't something I'd be interested in doing. That's where working as a part of a team comes in. Each specialty has its importance and the athletic trainer would fit in great in a rehab team.

Hey Mike,Thanks for the discussion. Do all athletic trainers have a BS degree?

I'm sure there's a place for a lot of people in rehab but think it should be for those who are educated in the needs of the patient, no personal trained or aids. there is so much to know.

I'm a little worn out from the pace of the program and everything I am learning and I know there's so much more. I'd hate to think there won't be a job market when i'm done next year.

I think if people want to do the job of therapists they should go to school to be therapists, they knew the deal beforehand. Or certainly at least should have known what their job prospects were...

Future PTA, do you realize that in Canada they are Athletic Therapists? That is their title. And there has been discussion of changing the name from Athletic Trainer to Athletic Therapist because many people believe it is more accurate of a title. And as an Athletic Trainer, I can become an Athletic Therapist by simply applying for licensure in Canada.

Now, this also goes both ways. There are TONS of physical therapists who think they are qualified to provide athletic training services including on-field assessments, taping, etc. If they want to be an athletic trainer, why don't they go to school for that?

Thank you very much for your help. That is exactly what i was looking for. Like I said, I am only a first year student and far less knowledgable than a PTA. I have alot to learn about the profession and I am looking forward to it. Thanks so very much for your time.

^^Cool Mike. Agree with you on your last point. PTs and PTAs aren't Athletic Trainers. They didn't go to school for it, and vice versa. Pretty much sums up my argument in a nutshell.

[QUOTE who="JM in Foster City, California
"Please get involved and make your voice heard. You do not have the right to complain if you don't vote and participate. You can't change an organization if you don't belong to it."

I have to say I totally agree with you in theory, however I am having a problem paying money to be a member of an organization who seems to only work for the PT. More than one of my CIs told me they never joined APTA because it was a waste of money, and it really never made a difference in their job searches (we are all told it DOES make a difference). I graduate in just over a month and will be taking my licensing exam in January or February 2012. Getting the notice today from my director (about RC3-11) made my heart drop, but will APTA really listen to the PTAs who are concerned and speaking out? I'n asking, not accusing....

I am a licensed massage therapist who works in a rehab facility with a chiropractor, a PT, and a PTA. Although I have extensive knowledge of the body and soft tissue techniques, I can honestly say that I cannot step into the shoes of my PTA. There is much more theory behind the profession than it gets credit for. A PTA is a trained professional that requires extensive knowledge of theory and practice of PT. If the PT requires an assistant, there is noone more capable to take on that role than the PTA. The patients deserve the BEST treatment team, hopefully the decision will be based on that respect.

I am an ACSM Registered Clinical Exercise Physiologist with an MS in Clinical Exercise Physiology and current DPT student. While in graduate school, I interned and subsequently was hired as an exercise physiologist in a PT stroke clinic to perform specific tasks that were aligned with my knowledge, skills, and abilities. Outside of those KSA's, I would not consider myself adequately trained or educated on providing benefit to PT's or patients. The PTA curriculum ensures safe and directed patient management that when combined with on-the-job training has proved to be an effective model for patient care. The physician-PA/NP relationship is a comparable model. PA/NP's are licensed mid-level health care practitioners that are comparable to PTA's in the sense that both disciplines receive an [academic] stamp of approval from a governing body indicating their ability to deliver safe, appropriate, and effective care to patients. PTA's and other assistive personnel [ATC's, Exercise Physiologists] all have their place in the rehabilitative sector; however, hiring criteria and task allocation should be based on the needs of the PT and the KSA's of the assisting personnel. Furthermore, PT's should be granted the unrestricted ability to make those clinical decisions as a move toward increased professionalism and autonomous practice.

Adam,

Your post contradicts itself. First you say that having qualified PTA's perform the duties which they are trained to perform ensure safe and directed patient management. You then go on to note that PT's should be granted the unrestricted ability to do exactly the opposite. I think some people are living in a fantasy land whereby they think that every PT will always do what is the patient's best interest. The truth, however, is that times are tight and people are looking for ways around the current setup in order to save money on labor costs.

This bill just has nothing to do with PT autonomy whatsoever. It has everything to do with replacing trained professional with untrained personnel who are paid less than PTA's. PT's has all types of restrictions and guidelines imposed on them by governing bodies including the APTA, and for good reason. The PT/PTA arrangement is but one of hundreds of examples. Why focus on this one issue if the real issue is PT autonomy. Because of course the real issue isn't PT autonomy at all, but rather a desire to hire cheaper employees.

Hiding under the guise of autonomy is what this bill does. Cheap labor is the man behind the curtain. Welcome to Oz...

My perspective is ambivalent... I absolutely agree. This debate is not black and white. I do have concern some PT's will take advantage of the practice act model of service; however, current physician practice models can be viewed in that same light, yet the AMA does not regulate who a physician hires...only that the physician is entrusted to delegate and supervise extenders of care whom they deem competent. My circle of colleagues whom range from EP's, ATC's, and CSCS's are all competent and PT's should not be restricted from utilizing their talents. Those colleagues are not better than PTA's... just possess a different set of skills. The question that persists is: Does misuse by a minority neccessitate regulatory policy over the majority who don't?

A PTA does not equate to being a better or more qualified individual. A Certified Athletic Trainer has many qualifications that can be very successful in a rehab setting. A Massage Therapist has qualifications that can be very successful in a rehab setting. A strength and conditioning specialist has qualifications that can be very successful in a rehab setting.

It is possible that the PTA job description has run its course. There are many professions who have the qualifications to be a vital piece of the rehab team.

I was told that the message therapists and athletic trainers would be hired in outpatient facilities only. Is this true???? If it is this change still has implications for the PTA job market/ demand as a whole but at least I would know as a student to focus on impatient instead of outpatient. Someone please help clear this up for me.

What if medicare refuses to pay for billed services performed by a physical therapist aid or a stregnth and conditioning specialist?

This will never pass, the APTA are just going through the motions, an issue has been brought up and now it is being looked into to satisfy the procedure manual. No PTA should worry AT ALL about this, if anything it will prove how valuable we are to the profession

Louisville Symon,
Thank you for your reply. What is your profession and how do you know that this will not get passed? I am under the impression that it is already going to allow athletic trainers to start working come July 2012.