Age discrimination as a leagal secretary.

I'm about to be 38 and going to a community college to become a certified legal secretary. It will take me about a year. I have no ambitions to be a paralegal. I have read there is age discrimination out there in this field and I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on this. Does anyone have any comments?

I'm wondering if I'm too old to do this and if I should look into another field.

Tricia in Destrehan, Louisiana said: I'm about to be 38 and going to a community college to become a certified legal secretary. It will take me about a year. I have no ambitions to be a paralegal. I have read there is age discrimination out there in this field and I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on this. Does anyone have any comments?

I'm wondering if I'm too old to do this and if I should look into another field.

OH MY! I spelled legal wrong and can't fix!

*blushes*

Tricia in Destrehan, Louisiana said: I'm about to be 38 and going to a community college to become a certified legal secretary. It will take me about a year. I have no ambitions to be a paralegal. I have read there is age discrimination out there in this field and I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on this. Does anyone have any comments?

I'm wondering if I'm too old to do this and if I should look into another field.

No, you are too old. No, you are not old. You are still very young. I'm 49 and still working in the field, and very glad I did.

Tricia in Destrehan, Louisiana said: I'm about to be 38 and going to a community college to become a certified legal secretary. It will take me about a year. I have no ambitions to be a paralegal. I have read there is age discrimination out there in this field and I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on this. Does anyone have any comments?

I'm wondering if I'm too old to do this and if I should look into another field.

Have you done the research? Have you spoken to legal secretaries who have been working in the field for a while? I can almost guarantee you that an overwhelming majority of them would strongly recommend against going into this field AND that they regret their decisions to do it. Not only is the legal secretarial profession dead end because you can't get promoted anywhere -you will always be at the bottom of the totem pole (if you are an ambitious, career-driven and goal-oriented person, this isn't for you) but also, most firms support a very tense and hostile work environment. The atmosphere is usually comparable to that of an oppressive dictatorship.

It's the attys who will have a lot to show for your hard work, not you. And believe me, you will work hard. This profession requires all of the hard work and dedication that a high profile, high stress corporate job requires but without the long-run payoff because advancement opportunities don't exist in this profession.

Your salary will grow at first as your experience increases, but after a few years, that growth will stop because it won't take long to cap out, and you will be lucky if you get a raise enough to cover yearly cost of living inflation. The big raises never happen because there's no higher position to which you can be promoted.

But the worst thing about this profession is the abuse and dealing with the attys.

Tricia,

Age discrimination is rampant among most careers right now – it’s across the board. If being a legal secretary is your only ambition, it’s a fine career and there will always be a need for these people. I suppose it depends upon what your previous career has been to see know if this is progression for you? Above all, you will need to be super sharp and extremely fast with computer skills.

Don’t listen to the bad experiences and bitter attitudes of others – there are PLENTY of environments in which legal secretaries work, including law firms, corporate legal departments, nonprofits, small practices, and others. Every office and staff is different like every other field.

The important thing to make sure you land a job when you graduate is to build experience along with your degree such as joining professional associations and volunteering somewhere related, such as a free legal help center.

You’re never too old to chase a dream!

--
Megan Pittsley
Career Advisor

I’m sorry you’re having bad experiences, but you must realize that this is not everyone’s case. You cannot stereotype every single lawyer or every single legal secretary position. You’re always going to find nasty bosses, whether they are CEO’s, physicians, lawyers, etc. One cannot let a few bad eggs spoil their career aspirations. It is up to the individual to find an environment that they feel comfortable and satisfied in.

I know several legal secretaries and two of them are my best friends. All of them love their jobs. One works at a large nationwide nonprofit in their legal contracts administration office. One works in a corporate legal department on a large Fortune 50 in San Francisco. Another works at a large financial institution in the bankruptcy law division. Three others work at small legal offices in the suburbs supporting small law staff. Another is a gentleman working in legal contracts and documentation within a large law firm. (Government agency work is also desirable in the field). All of these people have positive working environments and enjoy their work. I also know a few lawyers who do not fit the description you blanket them with. Again, I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences, but there is another side to the coin that you’re not considering an option.

Practically every industry is being hit by the recession. The legal field remains decently solid compared to the rest and it’s expected to pick back up and continue growth in the future. Also, many corporations and nonprofits are increasingly hiring support staff (paralegals, legal assistants, and legal secretaries) to save expenses on hiring multiple lawyers.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: That is a red herring. Yes, one will find nasty bosses anywhere, but we are discussing law at the moment, so let's stay with law.

Here again, Megan, you've never worked in the legal industry. I stand by my remarks and advice, especially my remarks about lawyers......

Yes - a "few" lawyers. You are on the outside looking in. Of course they will be pleasant enough to you; you weren't working for them. But I have - and I absolutely, positively know what I'm talking about. Baloney. Once again, you don't know what you're talking about, Megan. You're probably relying on outmoded BLS statistics that say paralegal is a growth vocation. I assure you, it is either stagnant or receding. And, again, Megan, firms are NOT hiring support staff. As I wrote, above, attorneys don't need as much support staff because they have become more self supporting.

Continued.....

This gal has not a clue what she is talking about....does not work in legal...yeah, And I can tell you about the personality of an astronaut.

this one DLP????

Tricia in Destrehan, Louisiana said: I'm about to be 38 and going to a community college to become a certified legal secretary. It will take me about a year. I have no ambitions to be a paralegal. I have read there is age discrimination out there in this field and I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on this. Does anyone have any comments?

I'm wondering if I'm too old to do this and if I should look into another field.

Tricia - Again, I would strongly urge you to reconsider. I am from Orange County, CA. I moved to my hometown in Northern CA where the cost of living is much cheaper so that I could work 20 hours a week and attend school full time to finish my bachelors degree. I am 42 and will graduate in Dec w/a degree in Economics. I have depleted my entire life savings, accrued hefty school loan debt, and haven't contributed anything toward retirement in 3 years so that I could make a career change. I knew the odds were stacked against me when I left this God-forsaken industry at 39 years old even before the economy crashed, but I was so miserable and desperate to get out of law that I was willing to take any risk to get out.

I didn't have bad experiences at just one firm but at all firms and with several different attys within one firm. The abuse is rampant.

I found out at the beginning of the summer that my financial aid was cancelled because I didn't finish my degree within the required # of units. I had too many units because I once majored in Criminology at another university while working p/t for attys. I realized during those p/t jobs that law was a bad career choice and dropped out of school. I wanted to be a criminal defense paralegal at the time. When I returned to a different University to major in Economics, I already had 100+ units when I decided to go back and finish my degree. I had to file an appeal to get my aid approved... continued

.... continued from above.

I was told by an aid counselor that I needed to show justification for the necessity of a career change, i.e., documentation from a doctor of stress leave or any type of disability. I told her I didn't have that, that I'd left the industry before it got to that point. She told me to have a former coworker write a letter on my behalf and to provide any emails or documentation that I had. A former coworker wrote a letter, describing the normal atmosphere in a law firm and explained that changing jobs doesn't alleviate the situation because the problem exists everywhere. I also found copies of old emails that I'd kept and a diary of everything that I'd documented, which I photocopied.

I photocopied everything and took it to my financial aid appointment, and the counselor was shocked. I even had emails another former coworker gave me about going out on stress leave and getting temporary disability. The counselor was appalled and told me I had done a good job of showing the justification I needed. I was also told that it takes 15-20 business days to find out whether the appeal has been approved, but I looked at my online account the VERY NEXT DAY, and my financial aid status had been upated from "denied" to showing that I was on financial aide probation.

I know that the odds are against me because of my age - I knew that before the economy fell - but I don't care. I am willing to do anything and stop at nothing to get out of law. And now I am applying for jobs all over the country, including Alaska.

...continued...

Tricia - I strongly urge you to reconsider. To any young person here whom I meet, I can provide with the phone #'s of 10 people who will do their best to steer her in a different direction. Talk to people who have been in the field. Do not listen to a career coach who has not been in the trenches and who has no idea what it's like to be in our shoes. My experiences were not isolated, unusual cases. The attys who treat their staff well are the isolated, unusual cases. It is THEY who are the exception to the rule. After dropping out of Criminology, I floundered thru life and continued as, this time, a full time legal secretary (as opposed to part time) for another 3 1/2 years (!!!) before becoming so miserable that I just didn't know how much longer I could stand it.

My story is nothing new. It's normal.

I wish I'd found this board before I started paralegal school at age 49. I graduated in March of '08 and cannot find a job because 99.9% of employers want years of experience, but none are willing to give you a shot. My school placement person said it's hard enough just to find internship positions. That explains why my internship didn't even require legal skills! I filled in for the victim's advocate at the local county atty's office. She had no legal experience or education when she took the job.
So now I'm 52 and have $17k of student loans to repay.

Tricia in Destrehan, Louisiana said: I'm about to be 38 and going to a community college to become a certified legal secretary. It will take me about a year. I have no ambitions to be a paralegal. I have read there is age discrimination out there in this field and I'm wondering if anyone could elaborate on this. Does anyone have any comments?

I'm wondering if I'm too old to do this and if I should look into another field.

IMHO - I think age discrimination is everywhere. People in all fields, with steller strong work history, face it when they hit say 50. It is a B*tch of life.

dh in Northern CA, California said: Have you done the research? Have you spoken to legal secretaries who have been working in the field for a while? I can almost guarantee you that an overwhelming majority of them would strongly recommend against going into this field AND that they regret their decisions to do it. Not only is the legal secretarial profession dead end because you can't get promoted anywhere -you will always be at the bottom of the totem pole (if you are an ambitious, career-driven and goal-oriented person, this isn't for you) but also, most firms support a very tense and hostile work environment. The atmosphere is usually comparable to that of an oppressive dictatorship.

It's the attys who will have a lot to show for your hard work, not you. And believe me, you will work hard. This profession requires all of the hard work and dedication that a high profile, high stress corporate job requires but without the long-run payoff because advancement opportunities don't exist in this profession.

Your salary will grow at first as your experience increases, but after a few years, that growth will stop because it won't take long to cap out, and you will be lucky if you get a raise enough to cover yearly cost of living inflation. The big raises never happen because there's no higher position to which you can be promoted.

But the worst thing about this profession is the abuse and dealing with the attys.

I couldn't have said it better! DON'T DO IT.

I can't imagine what people are doing wrong to have so many bad experiences with attorneys. I have been doing this over 15 years and have only met TWO bad attorneys. One was VERY bad but he had substance abuse issues and really needed to be in anger management. But most of them were absolutely great. They treated me like a friend, I went to their parties, got nice bonuses, etc. I have to wonder what kind of attitude you are bringing to work with you to have so many bad experiences?

I will say that I think small firms are the way to go. Solos will treat you like gold if you're competent because you make or break their business. It is easier for your contributions to get ignored/overlooked in a larger firm.

Small firms do treat you better. Reneeca, have you ever worked in a large firm? ??? NO???!! Well, then that explains it. Most attorneys in big firms have very big egos. Most attorneys in small firms are mellow and don't want to deal with drama. It could also depend on where you live. Perhaps the attorneys in Los Angeles have enough drama outside the office and don't need to create their own. Most attorneys who are very successful have created a certain persona (like an actress) that they use as a strategy in the defense of their clients; and they have had that persona for so long, it now is a part of them and they use that same persona and strategy in dealing with their assistants or other staff.

I stand firm on my position. Leave this field alone. You don't feel the impact of the age discrimination until its too late to get out.
Its a dead-end job anyway, you won't go anywhere with it, you just do the same thing day after day and making the lawyers rich.

DLP and others on this thread have done a very thorough job of describing the attitudes of many attorneys toward their assistants and other non-attorney staff, but I think I can offer some insight into why.

First off, to Tricia, I really encourage you to choose another field. If you are drawn to law because of the intellectual stimulation and because you have an aptitude for reading, researching, sythesis, and writing, you'd be better off in the HR or Marketing department of a law firm, government agency, or corporate legal department, where you're not directly assisting attorneys.

Now, as to the reasons. As my baccalaureate training was in Sociology, with graduate school in Public Administration, I tend to analyze personality issues in the same manner as LCSWs (Licensed Clinical Social Workers) are trained to do, and examine the social reasons for certain behavior. Based on my own experiences as a legal assistant for the last decade, it seems that the abusive attitude most attorneys take toward the staff is a result of class distinctions.

To tease it out a little further, let's think about the cost of law school, and the way that the expense of training works as a form of de facto discrimination, ensuring that only those students who come affluent backgrounds will be able to afford the upwards of $150K that it costs for three years of law school training.

Basically, the sorts of people who are being examined come from families where they are accustomed to wanting for nothing, where Mommy and Daddy probably pushed them hard to make good grades and be high academic achievers from a very young age, discouraged excessive socializing in favor of spending free time on learning activities (summer camps, tutoring, LSAT prep courses, etc.) and were probably of the "helicopter" school of parenting.

(continued)

The end result is a group of spoiled rich kids who grow up to spoiled law students, who then graduate and pass the bar, and are told that they are so much brighter and more worthwhile as human beings than the “little people” whose parents couldn’t afford to purchase them an expensive education at a fancy law school.

When they are in law school, their professors tell them that they represent the very best that society has to offer, and their profession is so much loftier than any other, with lots of high-minded discussion of political principles, to the point where they come out believing that they personally had a hand in inventing Democracy as we know it. (Any Greeks reading this would be rolling their eyes, I’m sure.)

This only makes them more demanding, argumentative, brusque, and entitled when dealing with people who they perceive to be so “far beneath” their station that they see staff not as human beings with needs and their own agendas, but as tools to be manipulated in order to get on a partnership track. In short, they stop thinking of non-attorneys as people, and consider them rather like the office machinery. After all, nobody cares how a copier or a fax machine “feels.” They view us the exact same way.

(continued)

As a personal anecdote, I was recently in the market to purchase a condo, and found a good prospect on the street where my employers’ offices are located. After much consideration, I decided against purchasing the property, chiefly because I realized that as soon as the attorneys found out that my home was so close to the office, I’d be unable to avoid having them contacting me at all hours of the day and night with their various requests, and would basically be unable to have a life outside of the job because it would be entirely too convenient for them to bother me if I were so nearby. I don’t fault them for that, of course. I mostly feel sorry for them that they never bothered to learn about violating other people’s boundaries and being respectful of others who have made different career choices than their own.

After a decade, I’m fairly certain that my pity has manifested in various ways, seeing as how I’m not shy about letting it be known that I have a very active social life outside of work, and can’t have my plans disturbed with last-minute requests, though I’m happy to schedule overtime and extra projects, provided I’m given enough notice. I’ve also been known to make it clear that they do not have enough money to purchase more than a certain amount of my unscheduled time, and that I, not they, will dictate the terms of any additional workload above and beyond my regularly scheduled shifts.

(continued)

Many attorneys and office managers have expressed chagrin at that. My way around it has been to remind upstart associates that I am just as bright as any one of them, and the only difference between us is that their family could afford to buy them an expensive education, whereas all my family ever had was family. Fortunately, the partners/shareholders I have worked with in the past have been astute enough to figure it out without my expressing it in so many words. I’m just lucky that I have so much specialized experience at my practice area, otherwise, I wouldn’t be in a position to be “telling instead of asking.”

So ask yourself this question: “Do I want to work for people who don’t even regard me as human for a decade just to get basic respect for my boundaries and limitations as a person?” If the answer is yes, then go right ahead with full knowledge of what you’re getting into. If the answer is no, however, it might be a good idea to consider something else.

Mezosub - brilliant, thank you for that!

reneeca in West Los Angeles, California said: I have to wonder what kind of attitude you are bringing to work with you to have so many bad experiences? ...Solos will treat you like gold if you're competent because you make or break their business.

The one small firm I worked at was definitely the least of the evils. There were 12 attys, only 1 of whom was a class-A jerk. Also, I'm convinced that the fact that it was strictly transaction and no litigation whatsoever made a big difference. The one jerk atty was the only atty in the firm who had prior litigation experience. A senior partner was a pub defender in the late 60's/early 70's.

As far as the attitude I brought to the job - I had a great attitude. They were absolutely clueless of the fact that I hated my job there and hated the industry period. My partner was shocked and angry when he found out thru the ofc mgr that I was returning to school full time to effect a career change. In April, '06, I told the administrator I'm returning to school and will be available part time only starting end of Aug, that if they could keep me around, I'd like that; if not, I understand. That was better than the ultimatum: I'm going back to school; change my schedule to p/t or I quit.

They said they could do that. A month later, I was called into my partner's office. He was angry and reneged on everything. He twisted my arm to get me to stay, i.e., "I know we said we'd give you enough hours to keep your benefits, but we won't be able to do that (They were going to hire a full timer to take my place and keep me as the p/t they intended to hire) so if you work p/t, we won't give you benefits." I told him, "That's ok; I don't need benefits." Then the ofc mgr asked, "But what about your daughter?" I told them she was covered by her father. I thought that was evil. They thought the could threaten to take away something they believed I couldn't live without to get me to stay.

continued...

reneeca in West Los Angeles, California said: ...I have to wonder what kind of attitude you are bringing to work with you to have so many bad experiences?...Solos will treat you like gold if you're competent because you make or break their business.

He continued with other things that I would not longer be "entitled" to, such as 401K contribution. With everything he said I would no longer get, I responded by saying that I could live without it. When he knew I wasn't going to succumb to his manipulation, he became exasperated and finally said, "Ok. We'll hire your replacement." I couldn't help but smile. I was trying not to be cocky, but I felt so triumphant. I said, "Thank you. All I want to do is change careers." I got up and walked out of his office, and the administrator shut the door, kind of loudly.

By far, the nastiest, most miserable atty for whom I had ever worked was a sole practitioner. I left OC and moved back to northern CA so go to school then had my worst law experience yet after I got up here.

And, Reneeca, if you like the job so much, more power to you. Even if the attys are so great, you're probably gonna spend the rest of your life at the bottom of the totem pole helping these guys get rich. It's they who have a lot ot show for your hard work, not you. Even if the industry were full of attys who treat staff well and morale was good in the industry, it's still not a job that's going to get someone very far.

Mezosub in Costa Mesa, California said: Many attorneys and office managers have expressed chagrin at that...“telling instead of asking.”

So ask yourself this question: “Do I want to work for people who don’t even regard me as human for a decade just to get basic respect for my boundaries and limitations as a person?” If the answer is yes, then go right ahead with full knowledge of what you’re getting into. If the answer is no, however, it might be a good idea to consider something else.

Mezosub - great posts. With all of your education, how did you end up working for attys? Have you thought about changing careers? I have a friend - a legal sec - who has her degree in Public Admin (BA) from CS Fullerton. I always told her she should check into working for the County or State govt because she, too, hated it.

I used to work in The DeLoitte and Touche building across from South Coast Plaza.
I graduate next month with my BA in Economics and will start grad school in Jan. I registered as an Economics major but am seriously considering Sociology instead.

Regarding attys contacting me, it happened but rarely. I lived closer than anyone (University ave). I screened all of my calls and wouldn't answer the following: blocked calls; calls from #'s not recognized; calls from #'s I recognized as my atty's. I didn't answer from #'s I didn't recognize because I thought there was a chance that an atty who couldn't reach his own sec might try to reach me. And when they did call, they ALWAYS hung up without leaving a message. I never did overtime (I think my total OT in '05 was about 75 minutes), and I wouldn't come in on weekends.

I was always polite and professional, but whenever I was told, "This needs to be done over the weekend," my canned response was always, "OK. I'll send out an office-wide email to find you a volunteer." That worked in big firms, but my last firm had 3 secretaries, none of whom were willing to come in, and I had a mad partner.

Mezosub in Costa Mesa, California said: Many attorneys and office managers have expressed chagrin at that...I wouldn’t be in a position to...

Your analysis above is outstanding, a great perspective. Last summer, I read a book entitled "Stop Sabotaging Your Career" by Lois Frankel, Ph.D. It's about professionals who get stuck mid-career and can't get themselves promoted any further. She outlines the most common reasons for this happening - usually something wrong with personality/character, and the person doesn't realize it. She outlines 8 strategies of how to analyze yourself and make the necessary changes to get unstuck and move forward.

Of course, it doesn't matter as an atty. Sometimes I think they get rewarded for being nasty and depraved. But the author gives a few examples of difficult people and that their behavior is usually rooted in how they were brought up or negative experiences they had as a child.

One example was of a skinny kid who was nerdly and teased who grew up to be handsome and looked like a model. As a professional, he had a hard time getting people to take him seriously. He dressed like a male model and looked like a movie star, probably to compensate for insecurities he developed as teased kid. The author counseled him on toning down is suits, start wearing glasses, etc., and his biz relationships improved.

I guess my point is, after reading this book, I wondered if it's possible that law attacts a lot of people who see an opportunity to be on top, to be in control, maybe because they were brought up in oppressive households, and now they want to do the oppressing?

This isn't a counterargument or disagreement to what you wrote - I'm just adding my own speculation. I think your "analysis" is very thought provoking and well put.

sorry for overkilling it again

This is all fascinating (in the same morbid way that driving by a car wreck does--you can't help but look and be glad it isn't you). My long-since past years as a legal secretary substantiate much of what is related.

I recall an attorney who called a temp agency when his assistant was sick. He went through EIGHT temps in a 24-hour period, either because he considered them inferior or they walked out on him. The only people that seemed to last any time were subservient. and yes, the geek factor was there. Sad, but true. That was many years ago. I'd hoped things had changed for the better.

I'm canceling my reservation at the info session for paralegal school that I'd booked. Thanks, y'all.

Mimi in Nashville said: This is all fascinating (in the same morbid way that driving by a car wreck does--you can't help but look and be glad it isn't you). My long-since past years as a legal secretary substantiate much of what is related.

I recall an attorney who called a temp agency when his assistant was sick. He went through EIGHT temps in a 24-hour period, either because he considered them inferior or they walked out on him. The only people that seemed to last any time were subservient. and yes, the geek factor was there. Sad, but true. That was many years ago. I'd hoped things had changed for the better.

I'm canceling my reservation at the info session for paralegal school that I'd booked. Thanks, y'all.

GOOD MOVE ON YOUR PART!!!!!

Mimi in Nashville said: This is all fascinating (in the same morbid way that driving by a car wreck does--you can't help but look and be glad it isn't you). My long-since past years as a legal secretary substantiate much of what is related.

I recall an attorney who called a temp agency when his assistant was sick. He went through EIGHT temps in a 24-hour period, either because he considered them inferior or they walked out on him. The only people that seemed to last any time were subservient. and yes, the geek factor was there. Sad, but true. That was many years ago. I'd hoped things had changed for the better.

I'm canceling my reservation at the info session for paralegal school that I'd booked. Thanks, y'all.

Smart move, Mimi. It's good that you have the common sense to learn from other people's experiences, unlike "kcheesk" in Phoenix, Arizona, over on another thread.

Good luck with your endeavors.

Yeah, my experience has been similar. I think a legal career is OK. Most of the attorneys I have met are pretty cool. But a couple have been really scary individuals. Especially on the litigation side. The bad attorneys are the ones that have a dark almost maniacal side to them.

But at the same time if you are looking for a high paying clerical position with great benefits, then legal secretary won't be a bad decision.

I am a legal secretary. And I remember one of my old mentor's told me that anyone who has worked in the legal profession can remember the first day they cried from all the stress from the job. Not every industry is like that, but unfortunately the legal industry is.

WRONG. There's other ways to make money than by abuse in the office.

Jennifer in Saint Petersburg, Florida said: WRONG. There's other ways to make money than by abuse in the office.

If you are an incompetent legal secretary and make your attorneys life harder then you will probably not be treated that well. If you are a star and can be on an attorneys "safe list" then you will do fine. I currently make $75,000 a year with bonuses and OT and get 6 weeks of paid vacation. I like my job and am glad I chose this field. Are some attorneys absolute nightmares? Yes! If you can make more doing something you love with less stress then do it. Otherwise, suck it up and be grateful you even have a job.

And another thing. I haven't read one single post that provides one single alternative to the job of legal secretary. All I have read are negative postings by people who say do something else. What else?

Keith in Mill Valley, California said: And another thing. I haven't read one single post that provides one single alternative to the job of legal secretary. All I have read are negative postings by people who say do something else. What else?

That's what your local college counselors are for.

Nice alternative Jennifer.

There is really age discrimination out there, if you notice private companies are looking for age bracket of 20-28 yrs. of age with 1-5 years of experience. Fortunately, for you being a legal secretary requires yrs. of experience and not age bracket

Hourly rate of Legal Secretary

1-4 years of experience $11.14 - $17.13
5-9 years of experience $14.80 - $22.17
10-19 years of experience $18.67 - $30.51
20 years and above $19.33 – $30.71

Hope this helps!

Yeah that reminds me. Another aspect of working in the legal services field is the lifespan issue. If you get a job as a legal secretary or support staff position at least in a large firm, you have to become indispensable. Otherwise, as you accrue annual pay raises each year you will ultimately out earn your value. Then you will get sacked. If you don't continue to grow professionally then you will get fired, because a firm would rather pay someone junior to you who will be paid less to do the same tasks.

I also wanted to say that the legal services industry is a very competitive one. Strong type A personalities are drawn to it for the status and financial incentives. Anyone considering a job as a legal secretary or support staff person should be prepared for some hard times. People who thrive in these types of jobs are those that can handle criticism and rise to the occasion. If you have talent and are committed you will be rewarded. If you whine a lot and can't work in a team setting then I would suggest going for something less challenging.

One last thing. If you want to earn the big money as a legal secretary you have to go to the big city. I don't think any legal secretaries in any of the fly over states are making bank. You have to work in a large law firm in a big metro area to earn a decent living as a legal secretary. Period.

DLP, Irene's salary chart appears fairly standard for the large firm/big metro markets that Keith discusses in his post above. Those ranges are fairly standard in metros with populations of 1 million+.

I do want to address the assertion that "If you are an incompetent legal secretary and make your attorneys life harder then you will probably not be treated that well." On the surface, that's true, but the inverse is not untrue either, which is that a legal secretary could be a stellar performer who turns out work products of the highest quality and is totally organized, but if the secretary doesn't kiss the right bottoms, the secretary will never be on a "safe list" of any kind.

Remember, attorneys and law firms have no loyalty towards their staff. If they can find someone younger and less experienced who can perform the basic functions of the job (perhaps not with as much finesse as an experienced veteran) for less money, they will try to do so. They figure the chances of getting caught by the Department of Labor Standards Enforcement (it's unlawful to fire experienced secretaries over age 40 so they can be replaced by younger and cheaper workers) are relatively low and they will get away with it.

By the same token, the assertion that "If you have talent and are committed you will be rewarded" is complete nonsense. Attorneys and law firms treat legal secretaries like furniture, as if one is completely like any other, with the same skills, abilities, and talents. It is much more likely that outstanding work products and dedication to task ownership will be reflected in case outcomes, which attorneys take credit for, as if they had performed the work themselves. If you like the idea of being an operative behind the scenes, pulling the case management strings while the attorney takes all the credit and accolades for your work, and is compensated and rewarded accordingly, being a legal secretary or paralegal will be the perfect job for you.

Finally, I want to address this from Keith:
" I currently make $75,000 a year with bonuses and OT and get 6 weeks of paid vacation."

Your compensation is not typical for your market. Period.

Never forget that legal secretary is a female dominated job category, and that men who work in female dominated professions (legal secretaries, registered nurses, bank clerks) are offered given benefits and compensation from 5 to 20 percent higher than their similiarly-qualified female counterparts for no other reason than they are male. Social scientists have determined that employers assume that a male worker has a "family to provide for" and a female worker will have a husband or male partner at home to help supplement her income by virtue of being a primary breadwinner for their family.

We're dealing with not just age discrimination here, but gender discrimination as well.

Keith in San Francisco, California said: Yeah that reminds me. Another aspect of working in the legal services field is the lifespan issue. If you get a job as a legal secretary or support staff position at least in a large firm, you have to become indispensable. Otherwise, as you accrue annual pay raises each year you will ultimately out earn your value. Then you will get sacked. If you don't continue to grow professionally then you will get fired, because a firm would rather pay someone junior to you who will be paid less to do the same tasks.

I also wanted to say that the legal services industry is a very competitive one. Strong type A personalities are drawn to it for the status and financial incentives. Anyone considering a job as a legal secretary or support staff person should be prepared for some hard times. People who thrive in these types of jobs are those that can handle criticism and rise to the occasion. If you have talent and are committed you will be rewarded. If you whine a lot and can't work in a team setting then I would suggest going for something less challenging.

One last thing. If you want to earn the big money as a legal secretary you have to go to the big city. I don't think any legal secretaries in any of the fly over states are making bank. You have to work in a large law firm in a big metro area to earn a decent living as a legal secretary. Period.

VERY WELL PUT!!!!!!! THAT'S IT IN A NUTSHELL!!!

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: What is the source of your information? I've never heard of a legal secretary making nearly $31/hour.

Except when you reach the 20 year level - you get replaced by a 20 year old for next to nothing pay. THATS CALLED AGE DISCRIMINATION.

Well for anyone who was wondering about age discrimination as a legal secretary I think they get the picture.

I pretty much agree with everything that everyone has said here. Except for Mezosub's assertion that I am overpaid because of I'm a male in a typically female dominated field. I feel that I have worked very hard over the years, and have tried to become a secretaries manager for the litigation practice group (they earn between 90K-100K). Sorry if that offends people, but I'm posting it anyway. Anyways, I feel the main obstacle in achieving this goal has been the fact that I am a male. I work in the girls club, and I'm a straight white male. Take those categories and run with them mezosub. Maybe you can impress your grad school professor with another brilliant essay. However, I must admit I did like your attorney personality post. I would also like to see a posting about sociopathic tendencies as well.

Anywyas, I would suggest being a physicians assistant instead. Or maybe a dental hygienist. If you don't like blood and rotten teeth then maybe elementary school teacher. If you don't like kids then go for something computer related. But one thing I can assure you. In this economy you will have to show commitment and hard work. Even then you might not make it. Unless of course you are a straight white male under 40. Then life is easy.

Keith, why are you posting here?

Keith,

You didn't mention in your previous posts that you consider yourself a "legal secretaries manager." The only reason I can imagine that your position even exists is if you are in a large firm where a wide pool of attorneys must share a pool of legal secretaries in order to get their tasks completed.

As I'm sure everyone else here already knows, in most firms, partners/shareholders and their supporting associates are broken into "share groups" where one legal secretary supports a partner/shareholder and the associate(s) who are selected to work on the partner/shareholder's cases. In such a situation, the secretary is directly supervised by the partner/shareholder, who determines priorities and helps the secretary manage her tasks, such that the associates do not take up too much of her time that should be spent directed to the partner/shareholder. The partner/shareholder also embues the secretary with his/her authority to select, hire, oversee, and fire vendors and to delegate her work to personnel in other departments such as billing/accounting, office services (copying, processing mail), or records (indexing pleadings/discovery, organizing files).

If your office is arranged thusly, what could you possibly be adding to the process other than a layer of unnecessary bureaucracy? Legal secretaries do not need to be "managed" by laypersons when they have licensed attorneys reviewing and supervising their work.

It seems as if you have some unexamined gender privilege to account for, and you are not taking into consideration that law has long been a male-dominated field where patriarchal attitudes are expressed and perpetuated. Perhaps it escaped your notice that there was a time in history when women were barred from all professions, including law, and that the echoes of past discrimination cannot be overcome in a matter of a few years or even decades.

Ground Control to Mesosub. Come in Mesosub... What was that, last semesters reading assignment. Yes I work at a large firm, and yes there is a hierarchy within the secretarial staff. As far as "patriarchal attitudes being expressed and perpetuated" I don't really concern myself with that. Furthermore, if that were the case then why are all of the secretarial managers female at my large law firm. That doesn't really fit so neatly into your over analyzed theoretical frame work. If your presumptions are right then why do I work for so many female attorneys? Why are all of my secretary managers female? Why am I a legal secretary? Surely this can't be the result of echoes of past discrimination.

Maybe that's how things are down in Orange County, but in San Francisco things aren't so confining.

Hey good luck to everyone with the job search and battling discrimination is what ever form it may be. All I can say at this point is that Mesosub has pretty much confirmed all my suspicions with regard to reverse discrimination. I sure am grateful she doesn't work with me, and that my boss is a little more open minded.

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: Keith, please don't attack me, but I am beginning to feel you have a slight case of swollen penis.

I think Mesosub is really a male attorney incognito messing with all of you!!! What do you think of that? Too many red flags going up around here with Mesosub (whatever that stands for).

Keith, you never answered my question: What value are you adding to the process by your so-called "management" of secretaries who are already supervised by licensed attorneys? Why would such "managers" be necessary, when it is the attorneys who bear ultimate responsibility for case management, which includes strategy and case outcomes?

As for you "not concerning yourself" with patriarchal attitudes, I must say that I am floored by the blithe manner in which you completely dismiss age and gender discrimination with that remark. I thought that the topic of the discussion was discrimination. I was trying to stay on the topic by sharing information that has been studied and measured by social scientists.

Did you know that female employment applicants are up to ten percentage points less likely to be hired over an equally-qualified candidate if they mention leadership positions in PTA or on children's activities than applicants who don't? Did you know married men are more likely to be hired over single men? Discrimination is running rampant and you think it doesn't affect applicants in a down economy? You think it takes hard work and dedication, and playing politics doesn't have everything to do with how staff is rewarded?

Seriously, everyone. I want to know this "nature or nurture question," and I hope everyone weighs in with what they think: Which is more important for a legal secretary to be perceived as: A highly competent professional who is on top of their duties or a smooth-talker who really knows how to get along with everyone by sucking up to the right people? Either or, no combos, and tell us what you saw to make you believe that.

Mezosub,

Fist part of your question: I would be adding value as a legal secretaries manager by providing training to less experienced legal secretaries. I didn't design the hierarchy I just work in it. As for me I just want to do it so that I can make more money and transfer out of the secretarial pool to litigation support. Nothing sinister or fancy about it, I just want to prolong and grow my career.

Second Part: I think that as a legal secretary you need to reach a certain level of competence or it doesn't really matter. Then if you are able to achieve that level of competence you need to be affable. Likability is a huge part of getting ahead. I mean seriously, no one wants to be around someone who doesn't have a sense of humor or pleasant demeanor. I forgot to post that in my previous post on how to thrive in a law firm. When people see you, they need to have a sense that you are someone who is competent and positive to be around. Otherwise, you will get sacked!

Everyone,

In terms of getting around the discrimination thing. Being able to schmooze and make people laugh will compensate for not fitting in in other ways. Yeah, fitting in is the most important part of being promoted. Fitting in is the most important aspect of any job.

Keith in San Francisco, California said: Jennifer, at least I am posting information and opinions on here. I mean seriously, what are you contributing? At least Mary can think up of good old fashion junior high school put down. Then there's Mesosub, driving it home with the sophisticated sociological analysis. But honestly Jennifer, I'm just not seeing any real creativity on your end. You've got to step up and make a showing.

Here's my showing: I think you and Mesosub have too much time on your hands accompanied by egos the size of the planet! I don't see your contribution(s) either, other than bragging about how much money you make and how to do it! Well maybe "schmoozing" (sp?) works for you two but some of us are tired of that practice. In any event, you have broken away from the discrimination issue. It exists whether you kiss someone's ass in the office or not. At some point, you all will experience it either personally or watch it happen to someone else. Try doing a little research with the EEOC and see what the figures are in relation to people 40's and up being dumped and rehiring with a younger, less experienced people who will gladly work for much less. Get back on the subject. Tired of hearing about how wonderful you both are. By the way, age discrimination doesn't just exist in the legal profession - it exists everywhere, factories, etc. Corporate America is interested only in "get the job done for the least amount of money" and they figured out how to do that before you were born.