Best Way To Break In?

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Continued from above....

That's really not a consideration IMO. Smart firms know attorneys and law graduates are not really interested in being paralegals. They also know attorneys and law grads are neither trained to be paralegals nor are they suited as paralegals. They know these individuals are simply trying to get their feet in the door and they treat them accordingly

Maybe true with law firms (at this time) however, there is a trend with in-house, especially in insurance, that JD applicants are preferred. I have spotted quite a few ads for senior paralegal positions in the insurance industry in which the applicant should have a bachelors, and ABA paralegal certificate and 5+ years of experience, *or* a JD. AON, NY Life, and Nationwide have posted ads for senior paralegal positions stating that recent law grads are encouraged to apply. It will be only a matter of time that this trend will cross over to big law given the large number of law grads who cannot find work as junior staff counsel.

Fact is that law grads have always been treated as brother in arms with their fellow attorneys and I can easily see a recent law grad getting the position over a non-attorney. The kid has debt, but there is a bigger carrot to dangle over that kid's head that eventually he/she can inherit their own case load within time. Where is the incentive for the professional paralegal to take on more work? The money is just not there in law anymore and firms know this. Also, the trend to cut support staff is still continuing. Just the other day on Above the Law, there was a report that DL Piper has downsized its support staff again. Jones Day has also scrapped its holiday bonuses for its support staff nationwide. The legal profession just became too big for its own good. There are simply an over supply of attorneys right now.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said:
Add in 24/7 e-filing, which even a semi-computer literate attorney can master, and law firms are doing more with less. These developments mean less need for paralegals and other nonlawyer assistants. Hence, the Big Lie about paralegal being one of the fastest growing vocations.

I recently audited some paralegal classes at my local community college and the professor claimed on the first night of class that US Labor Department stated that this profession will continue to grow. I had a conversation with the professor one night (who is also a practicing attorney with his own law office) and he admitted that his business was way down and he would not make ends meet if he didn't teach on the side. It just angers me that the ABA and these schools are not up front with these kids. I do however give these kids in my classes some credit that they want to try out the legal field first before running off to law school and incurring even more debt.

I think the only fields that will be available will be service, finance/banking, healthcare, education, and the government. I'm already seeing this trend already. Practically 80% of the employees I work with at Trader Joe's are displaced white collar workers. The manager of the produce department even has a MBA. I even work with a kid who decided to drop out of law school because of the poor legal market. He works at the store part time and retuned to grad school to study finance. These are very sad times indeed.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: The blame rests more on paralegal schools than on the ABA. Paralegal schools are no different than other trade schools or vocational "colleges." They train people, but not gratuitously. They exist to make money.

The ABA audits schools and provides these schools with accreditation for these programs; therefore the ABA is just as guilty as these schools. I also place blame on the US Labor Department for its false reporting and failing to track trends. One should also conduct his/her own research and not take what the US Labor Department states as gospel. What has been happening at law firms and some in-house legal departments is in stark contrast the labor department’s forecasts. You are also correct that these non-accredited vocational schools share most of the responsibility. There should be laws passed that schools should provide better transparency for students with regard to hiring and placement.

Getting back to my point with regard to the ABA, there is much debate on many legal boards blaming the ABA in allowing too many law schools to operate. Many critics of the ABA place blame on this organization in allowing many law schools to lower standards in accepting students and creating an over-supply of law grads and attorneys. Many also feel that not only has the ABA cheapened the legal field with over supply, but also has done little in having legal work outsourced to Asia.

tmf1977 in Yonkers, New York said: It just angers me that the ABA and these schools are not up front with these kids.

The reason schools are hyping not just paralegal programs, but other programs, too, is because these schools are in dire straits due to the ongoing recession. Over the next five years, we are going to see many brick and mortar schools close their doors, because of the high operating costs of keeping them and escalating energy bills. See The American Associations of University Professors, Annual Report on the Economic Status of the Profession at: www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/AFB34202-2D42-48B6-9C3B-52EC3D86F605/0/zreport.pdf

With baby boomers retiring and a smaller pool of younger students to draw from, there aren't enough numbers to sustain the roughly 3400 charter schools in America. Plus, with the global recession and declining US dollar, it will become increasingly difficult to tap into the international student market.

Law is going to be one of the worse professions to be in, which is why Britain has already moved towards its deregulation of the legal profession by way of the Legal Services Act of 2007. One of the central measures is the endorsement of alternative business structures for lawyers. It's just the tip of the iceberg of where the legal profession is heading.

The paralegal boom is over. Why anyone would even consider entering this field is beyond me. Graduates are likely to end up with a paralegal credential and no job. I think anyone considering a career in this field would be better off panning for gold, where at least they have a chance at finding an occasional nugget or two.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Isn't it already?? I submit the boom was over long ago, such as the mid to late '90s.

Take my situation. More than eleven years of paralegal experience across multiple specialties. One would think eleven years of paralegal experience would be worth something, notwithstanding age. Not hardly, at least around here.

I agree about the boom being over in the mid to late 1990's. Thereafter, a lot of schools jumped onboard with paralegal programs hoping to cash in on the popularity. What we're seeing now is the residue effects of that boom.

Your not being able to find work despite your experience has a lot to do with what you were saying earlier about lawyers doing much of their own work, along with a difficult economy.

I plan on shifting back into the health sector

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I assume you mean paralegal schools. The ABA doesn't accredit the schools per se. It does approve them.

Thank you for correcting me. You are right: ABA approves paralegal programs. I do know in NY, there is no such thing as paralegal "schools" per se; there are colleges and universities who offer paralegal programs as part of its continuing education programs that have been approved by the ABA. I do however concur wholeheartedly with you in that the "hype" and the gross exaggerations of income potential, and job prospects provided by these schools (as well as with some paralegal organizations) needs to be addressed. At least with attorneys, there are several blogs that have addressed this similar issue with law schools and the ABA failing to follow trends in the legal profession and continuing to accredit third rate law schools and doing nothing to address the outsourcing problem.

There has to be better transparency with these schools who offer these types of programs with students. The advice provided by the attorney in my “Into” class for a way to break in was for students to search for ads in which the law firm was willing to "train". That is the worse advice to provide. In NY, any law firm willing to train a recent grad is not seeking kids graduating with a paralegal certificate; these firms want top tier college graduates who have an interest in eventually going to law school.
I can say it was quite difficult for me to sit in class while this professor went on about the US Labor Department's claim that the paralegal profession is growing--it is not. If anything, it is the complete opposite. I still stand by what I have stated that one should only consider becoming a paralegal if one wants to be an attorney. I do not recommend that anyone should go to law school right away, especially in these tough economic times. I would not recommend the legal profession to anyone unl

Sorry...my last remarks were too long.

I would not recommend the legal profession to anyone unless that person has a passion for law, and even then I would recommend that person to think hard before attending law school and becoming an attorney.

The US legal profession has become quite abusive and employee morale is at an all time low, especially now. In the past, at least salary was somewhat of an incentive. However given the number of hours expected of attorneys (as well as from the support staff), salary means very little when your work/life balance is off kilter. If anything, big law has cut back on providing annual raises and bonuses.

I know I have been writing quite a bit about the attorneys' plight, but people have to understand that if the attorneys are having it difficult, it trickles right down to the support staff. As already mentioned and articulated several times here, technology, outsourcing (which work used to be performed by senior level paralegals and recent law grads), increased costs to run offices, as well as lack of work has provided deep cuts to many established, large law firms and corporate counsel. Many attorneys have also been displaced as well (an attorney was downsized right along with me at my last position).

As buncle19 eloquently stated, the paralegal boom is over. I have, as well as many others on these boards, have experienced this first hand. New students to this profession, please be warned and consider another field. The US legal profession is in a lot of trouble now and more downsizing is expected from firms.

I agree with you, however I really do feel for these recent law grads who have incurred an incredible amount of debt. Their prospects in finding work to pay back their debt are very slim, especially if they graduated from a low second tier ranked law school and especially from third tier law school. Even graduates from some first and high ranked second tier law schools are finding it difficult to snag full time positions. My neighbor's son who graduated over a year ago from a second tier law school was lucky enough to find a part time gig at a small law firm in NYC. Problem for him is that the pay barely covers her loan and bills, and of course there are no benefits. Law graduates from the classes of 2008 through 2010 have been deemed to be the loss generation of lawyers due to the poor market. Boomer lawyers are retiring anytime soon either.

Getting back to the paralegal profession, I do not consider myself to be a Debbie Downer, but paralegals who are gainfully employed should stock pile their money. Since 2008, the legal field has proved itself not to be recession proof. I know several experienced paralegals on LinkedIn who have been downsized from their firms and in-house positions and cannot find work.

Edit: Boomer attorneys are not retiring anytime soon.

Even if a law graduate doesn't work in law, law school should instill professionalism and good reasoning-skills into students. JDs are still very employable outside of the legal world. I see law graduates working in a lot of various organizations down here, often as public figures for their respective organizations.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Uhhh, what do you mean by "public figures"?

Like a spokesperson, but more involved with networking and community outreach.

I'm not disagreeing. But from what I'm seeing down here in South Florida, a few NPOs are favoring recent law grads for this position. Perhaps for their public speaking abilities, knowledge of law and willingness to perform busy work. In a time where law schools have arguably over-saturated the market with graduates, indebted JDs seem willing to consider non-legal job offers that come their way.

You're right. And that's one reason I love the low-tier state schools. The Florida International University College of Law's part-time JD program is $36000 in tuition for the whole program. A student could theoretically work at McDonald's 4-days/week, put themselves through that program and graduate debt free (or close to it).

Everything you say is true. My comment is more directed towards a person who wants a law degree and is unlikely to get into Harvard. This person would probably be better off with the plan I mentioned as opposed to doing full-time programs at other state school (e.g. Florida State University) and graduating with debt burden of 3 years of school ($45K) and living expenses for 3 years (another $45K). Even worse, and what a lot of students end up doing, is going to a private law school such as Barry University Law School where the tuition alone will cost $96,000.

Job opportunities will be about the same for graduates of all the schools I've mentioned. But the student who graduates debt free can take a job starting at only $40K/year and live comfortably without the burden of paying interests on student loans.

H-T- in Miami, Florida said: You're right. And that's one reason I love the low-tier state schools. The Florida International University College of Law's part-time JD program is $36000 in tuition for the whole program. A student could theoretically work at McDonald's 4-days/week, put themselves through that program and graduate debt free (or close to it).

Considering the investment of time involved, I wouldn't want to graduate from a low-tier law school, especially in this type of economy. It might look good on paper, but having a job is more important. Law firms are looking for graduates from the better schools and they have plenty of unemployed candidates to choose from. In many ways, I think the legal profession has played itself out, especially with all of the free legal information that's now available online.

H-T- in Miami, Florida said:

But the student who graduates debt free can take a job starting at only $40K/year and live comfortably without the burden of paying interests on student loans.

On that issue I agree, but only assuming they can land a job, which is unlikely considering they'll be competing with applicants that graduated from better law schools.

buncle19 in San Marcos, California said: I think the legal profession has played itself out, especially with all of the free legal information that's now available online.

This is a great point. So does this mean law applications will drop off and some programs will start closing?

I do believe we may see an increase of people from other professions heading to law school to supplement their knowledge. I've noticed an increase in health care practitioners heading to law school. They don't intend to practice law, but feel they will benefit from the education.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Seems they'd be better served by earning Master's degrees. Something concrete that they can trade upon to better themselves. Not a law degree that has no nexus to healthcare. An exception might be a physician who wants to be a professional expert witness.

Mostly physicians going for JDs. A few Nurse Practitioners & Physician Assistants too. There's nothing they can really go back and study that will further their health care careers since they all have terminal degrees, so I think they might be doing these degrees for reasons you suggested: being expert witnesses.

H-T- in Miami, Florida said: This is a great point. So does this mean law applications will drop off and some programs will start closing?

According to the AAUP's faculty compensation survey for the annual report on the Economic Status of the Profession, a lot of schools are struggling and won't make it over the long haul. See: www.aaup.org/AAUP/pubsres/research/compensation.htm

Not only are law applications going to drop off, but with money being so tight, many parents are delaying sending their children to college. Grants and endowments also have been cut back significantly. We're likely to see a lot of law school graduates hanging up their shingle in taxi cabs and rendering legal advice on the fly, while the meter is running! I think Alvin Toffler made some predictions about the legal profession years ago in one of his books, which may very well materialize.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Isn't that what "billable hours" is all about?

All depends on who's meter.

I considered becoming a paralegal once upon a time.
Even went on two interviews both resulting in job offers for none other than a whopping $28K and $30K a year. Both required working anywhere 55-70 hrs a week with no paid overtime.(ah if i wanted to work for free i would become a volunteer).
No healthcare, dental or vision benefits for me or my kids.
No vacation time (except for 2 days after 5 years of service)
2 days of "paid" sick leave.
The one that paid 30k required me to be "on call" 24/7.
They didn't give raises or bonuses.

Out of curiosity i researched both the law firms to see how much they took in on a yearly basis.
I was astounded when i saw the millions of dollars they earned. These firms had 4 attorneys or less and each firm had 2-3 poorly paid employees. They outsourced accounting/payroll.

The salary was pretty pathetic considering the firms intake and my background--a bachelor's degree (dual majors), years of professional work experience and fluent in 2 languages with partial fluency in a third. Cultural/international experience they were seeking.

But before i turned it down, i conducted an informational interview with 2 other paralegals that worked for different (large) firms.
Both paralegals had bachelor's degrees (law related) with 8-15 years experience as paralegals. Both made less than 40K, worked very long hours without overtime, and had little to no benefits.
Both were miserable but felt "stuck". Both worked for varying law firms over the years and were treated with utter disrespect by attorneys.

Basically, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this was not a good career.

If you are willing to put up with the BS then may i recommend working somewhere in retail as a Manager. At least you will be paid more than 28K, with paid overtime, and some decent benefits. Depending on where you work, you'll garnish more respect than a Paralegal gets from attorneys.

Jax007 in Arlington, Texas said: I considered becoming a paralegal once upon a time. Even went on two interviews both resulting in job offers for none other than a whopping $28K and $30K a year. Both required working anywhere 55-70 hrs a week with no paid overtime.

Basic math tells me that if someone is going to invest four years of their time obtaining a bachelor's degree in paralegal studies, then they better be making a lot more than 30k a year. It's chump change by today's standards.

buncle19 in San Marcos, California said: Basic math tells me that if someone is going to invest four years of their time obtaining a bachelor's degree in paralegal studies, then they better be making a lot more than 30k a year. It's chump change by today's standards.

And believe it or not, this is quite normal in the asking price. Where I live in Westchester County, NY, White Plains has a substantial legal community. There are several large to small law firms (including Big Law offices such as Wilson Elser, Jackson Lewis, and Skadden no less) located in White Plains. The going rate for newly admitted attorneys in White Plains at most firms is in the low to mid $50's. My neighbor recently received an offer from Jackson Lewis's White Plains office earning less than $37K as a law clerk in which she is a part time 3L from a second tier law school.

If law grads and recently admitted attorneys are being offered salaries in the low 50's (and sometimes as low as high $40's), people who want to work as paralegals need to brace themselves for some pretty low salaries. The problem is the amount of pressure and demand does not match the salary offered at all. During my job search these last two years, I have spotted several ads offering hourly wages as low as $12-$16 per hour these past two years for paralegals and legal secretaries with experience. Face it folks: the money is not in law anymore. Only those who were lucky to find well paying jobs and were not downsized had lucked out in this field.

Hey DLP,

I'm still obtaining my Legal Studies degree and am comtemplating attending law school. If not I'll get a masters in Criminal Justice or Public Administration and see what happens with that. I am not leaving the legal field as I enjoy it but, if there aren't going to be any positions available within the next fews years I'm going to start my back-up plan.

MsGucci in Miramar, Florida said: Hey DLP,

I'm still obtaining my Legal Studies degree and am comtemplating attending law school. If not I'll get a masters in Criminal Justice or Public Administration and see what happens with that. I am not leaving the legal field as I enjoy it but, if there aren't going to be any positions available within the next fews years I'm going to start my back-up plan.

With the ongoing recession and higher crime rate, a criminal justice degree should pull in some kind of job. Either that or we'll all be working at Walmart.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: So true! It was true when paralegal still paid something.

I will say the top Denver firms were starting new associates at $100K+ - but this was three years ago. No idea what they're starting them now.

Happy belated Thanksgiving DLP!

White Plains, NY is considered to be a small legal market in comparison to NYC and probably Denver. I do know that the larger firms such as Wilson Elser and Jackson Lewis who have offices in White Plains do start their entry level counsel off with salaries in the low 60's (I know two attorneys who work at both firms respectively.) I am not sure if the offices in NYC offer a little more, however both of these firms are known to reward for loyalty and merit and do not start their employees off with the six figures.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: It's a bad idea to saddle yourself with all that debt if you have uncertain job prospects and uncertain ability to service the debt. A user here pushes a law school in Florida that supposedly costs a fraction of the cost of better known law schools. IMO, considering the highly competitive market, not attending a well known, top tier school is a false economy. Legal employers are more likely to hire top-tier JDs than ones from lower-tier schools. In other words, ya get what ya pay for.

I know some would like to pin DLP in being a Debbie Downer, however this man is speaking the truth here. I recommend you conducting some research first before taking the law school plunge. Above the Law has been documenting the trends with law firms becoming very particular with school ranking. Research the schools you want to go to and canvas the firms who are in close distance to the schools you want to go to. Most firms post their attorney's CV's on the firm's website. LinkedIn is another good source. If you find that you come across more out of work attorneys who graduated from the school you want to attend, you should reconsider that school.

I cannot stress enough that the legal field is in a bind right now. There is even controversy surrounding ABA's role in allowing legal work outsourced to India and the strong possibility in having Indian and Chinese law schools having programs accredited by the ABA (basically screwing US attorneys big time should this happen).

If you love law, then go for it. However, please do your research first and I mean not just relying on what the Law School spoon feeds you about its stats. Talk to grads, look up law firm CV's, and research through LinkedIn. Law school is a lot of money and the last thing you need is six figure debt with the slim chance in being hired.

buncle19 in Carlsbad, California said: With the ongoing recession and higher crime rate, a criminal justice degree should pull in some kind of job. Either that or we'll all be working at Walmart.

And it's already happening. I cannot begin to tell you that the only places hiring these days is retail because the number of people are simply needed. But even where I work, Trader Joe's, the store hired everyone it needed to staff its store. But I digress..

All one needs to do is to check out the hourly rates at temp positions and it is not too far off in what Walmart and Target are offering to start its employees off. A year ago I only spotted ridiculously low wages posted on CL. Now I am seeing these low wages posted on legit hiring sites such as Indeed and Monster.

We may never see the salaries that we used to make before the recession. Provided the economy and now international problems the US is facing (such as the developments in Korea!) we are in for it folks.

MsGucci in Miramar, Florida said: Hey DLP,

I'm still obtaining my Legal Studies degree and am comtemplating attending law school. If not I'll get a masters in Criminal Justice or Public Administration and see what happens with that. I am not leaving the legal field as I enjoy it but, if there aren't going to be any positions available within the next fews years I'm going to start my back-up plan.

Who the Hell wrote this comment???

Hi there,

What I suggest doing is start out volunteering for your neighborhood Legal Aid Office. Volunteering is a great way to gain experience. Also, sometimes through volunteering a paying position can open for you. In addition, you can make professional contacts and start networking as well.

I started working at a Legal Aid Office this past Wednesday. It seems like I made a positive impression but it is too early to tell.

And all those associates who just got pay raises will soon be joing all of the nonlawyers on the unemployment line when the firm realizes they can save even more money by dumping them and offshoring their work to India.

Jane Do Girl in Pensacola, Florida said: I respectfully disagree with DLP. My legal career began with a BA in Poli. Sci., 5.5 years of customer service /operator work experience, and a 2- attorney firm that hired me as a Legal Secretary . It became readily apparent that I would not remain a secretary forever as my initiative and thirst for knowledge saw me taking on more tasks and responsibilities. Within 6 months I was drafting full estate planning packages, real estate documents, and handling minor discovery. I eventually went back to school and earned by Paralegal BA, which I completed after being at that firm 5 years. 3 months after getting my Paralegal BA, I took a job as a litigation paralegal at one of the larger and most prestigious firms in town. I soon realized the value of the mentoring and training I received in my 5 years at the solo firm and became a valuable member of our litigation dept. I am now the senior paralegal here, working on my Paralegal Masters' degree, and serve as an officer on the board of the local paralegal association.

DLP's comments are simply his viewpoint... they do not apply to all people, all the time, in all situations. The Paralegal profession is what you make it; if you're willing to put in the time, effort, hard work, and personal dedication both in and outside the office.

Best of Luck!

Thanks for the great info. I graduated just over a year ago with my associates as a paralegal and am having a hard time finding a job. What are some suggestions as to how I can begin my career search. I am really afraid of rejection so I don't always apply.

Any advise would be helpful.
Thank you in advance :-)

Jess in Beaverton, Oregon said: Thanks for the great info. I graduated just over a year ago with my associates as a paralegal and am having a hard time finding a job. What are some suggestions as to how I can begin my career search. I am really afraid of rejection so I don't always apply.

Any advise would be helpful.
Thank you in advance :-)

As stated by others here, the legal field is going through a rough patch right now and it now boils down to location. I can tell you where I live, Westchester, NY, I live near NYC and also White Plains, NY (which has a minor legal market) and jobs are pretty slim picking these days, especially for support.

How I broke into the field, I started off as an admin/floater in which I would assist various legal teams with work (drafting documents, organizing files, copying documents, etc.). Eight months latter, I was promoted to a Legal Secretary position, then as an entry level paralegal. You may have to look for entry level positions such as file clerk, receptionist, or admin/floater to get your foot into the door. I also recommend doing some volunteer work at a local legal services office. Non-Profit/Legal Offices are in dire need of help these days. I also recommend joining LinkedIn which has active Paralegal discussion groups.

Hope this helps. All the best with your search.