Choosing between ABA-approved and non-ABA approved certification program...

I am graduating next month and will then have a BA in Sociology. I am currently looking into two different certification programs (in Seattle, WA) for Paralegal work that begin in September.

Does anyone have advice on the importance of being certified through an ABA-approved program?

My first choice is the University of Washington Extension Certification program. Although it is NOT directly ABA-approved, it is approved by the University of Washington School of Law - which IS ABA-approved.

My second choice is through a community college, which offers an Advanced Paralegal Certificate (advanced because it requires BA for admission). This IS ABA-approved, just not as prestigous as my first choice.

Therefore, is ABA-approval or prestige of greater importance? Does it matter more for a recent graduate of the program or more in the long run with years of
experience?

Thank you!

I'd suggest you go with the ABA-approved program. I realize getting a paralegal certificate from a community collge is not as prestigious-sounding as getting it from the Univ. of Washington. Not all employers require an ABA-approved, but when you want to apply to the firms that do, you will find that you've limited yourself by not meeting that requirement.

Perhaps you can look at local job postings in your area to see if an ABA-approved paralegal cert. is required in most of those ads or not.

www.paralegalchat.com

Seconded. ABA paralegal certificate approval is important. Law firms, companies, corporations and government entities prize candidates with ABA-approved paralegal certificates. ABA approval for a paralegal program is equivalent to accreditation for a college.

There's nothing wrong with earning a paralegal certificate at a community college, dedicated paralegal school, business college or wherever as long as the program is ABA-approved. Moreover, ABA-approved paralegal programs generally require a Bachelor's degree for entrance. Your socz (sp) degree will open the door to those programs.

Hope that helps some more. Good luck with your plans.

This is in response to the above poster who said "Moreover, ABA-approved paralegal programs generally require a Bachelor's degree for entrance." I don't think that's true, at least maybe not where I'm from. There are three community colleges that offer paralegal studies programs near where I live, and two are ABA-approved. I think ABA-approved just means the school meet certain requirements the American Bar Association set forth, and the approval can be costly for the school to maintain. There shouldn't be any more requirements for enrollment in an ABA-approved school than in a non ABA-approved school.

Perhaps the CCs with the ABA-approved programs require one to earn an Associate's degree in paralegal studies concurrently with the paralegal certificate.

The major ABA-approved paralegal school I attended in Denver several years ago required a Bachelor's degree to enroll. The small private college ABA-approved paralegal program my wife attended in Massachusetts required a Bachelor's degree. The Bachelor's was required for enrollment in its paralegal certification-only (non-degree) program. I cannot speak for the degree program.

Go with the better school. The ABA began approving programs in the 1970s because at that time most programs were non-credit and there were no other agencies overseeing them. The University of Washington is subject to more stringent oversight through its accrediting agency than the ABA offers.

Is there any research to suggest employers would value a community college certificate over a university certificate on the basis of ABA approval? I am not aware of any.

You cannot compare ABA approval to academic accreditation. For a college degree to mean anything, the college must be accredited by one of the accrediting bodies recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. ABA approval only means the paralegal program meets ABA standards. Good, free-standing, non-academic paralegal schools, such as the one I attended, will be ABA-approved. Once again, generally, a Bachelor's degree is required to admission to those schools. While I'm sure there are exceptions, good, accredited college paralegal programs are usually ABA-approved as well.

Just look at job ads and online paralegal profiles at larger lawfirms if you need research. Many job ads will set forth a specific ABA paralegal certificate requirement. You can review online paralegal profiles and research schools to determine if the person attended an ABA-approved program. I submit most have.

I'm not saying that a non-ABA paralegal certificate is a non-starter. Many people become paralegals without a paralegal certificate or even a degree. However, an ABA paralegal certificate is certainly a valuable industry-recognized credential in a very competitive market for both entry-level and higher-level legal professionals.

I just read the first 15 paralegal want ads for DC. There are large firms and small, legal recruiters, government agencies and in house counsel. Not one asked for an ABA approved program. They asked for bachelor's degrees, paralegal certificates, certain GPAs, certain levels of experience, but not one employer asked for a graduate of an ABA aproved program.

There are fifteen paralegal ads in DC? We don't get fifteen in a month here.

In any event, I've seen ABA paralegal certificates wanted on ads here and on various Monster, etc. ads. I also said "many" job ads; not all.

I've also read through online paralegal profiles at major lawfirms here. A significant percentage of these successful people graduated from the same paralegal school I attended.

FWIW.

MH in Union City, California" "I'd suggest you go with the ABA-approved program. I realize getting a paralegal certificate from a community collge is not as prestigious-sounding as getting it from the Univ. of Washington. Not all employers require an ABA-approved, but when you want to apply to the firms that do, you will find that you've limited yourself by not meeting that requirement.

Perhaps you can look at local job postings in your area to see if an ABA-approved paralegal cert. is required in most of those ads or not."

Worth rereading, especially the part about being limited by not having ABA approval.

Personally, if you intend to stay local, go with the more prestigious school. If you will relocate, go with the ABA approved.

I truly believe it is the particular region in which you are searching for employment that makes a difference. As a paralegal it is your job to research and find these things out. In the law field, there are some hotspot regions that do not care about ABA or non-ABA, they just want a person who can work their load, and do everything a paralegal is supposed to do. The regional hotspots for entry-level paralegals are atlanta, new york, boston, and washington, d.c. preferrably in the spring time. There is always work in washington d.c. for entry level paralegals. what i will say is that your longevity in the career depends on how much you decide to diversify your skills and your want for continued education. But I don't think ABA is going to make or break your career.

Can anyone give any feedback as to a need to have a bachelors or an associates degree? I am in a program right now that is an associates and they do not offer a bachelors. Yet if I get the associates I am worried that it may not transfer later to a bachelors somewhere else. Do I really need a bachelors or can a career be made from an associates?

Kward in Shallotte, North Carolina: "Can anyone give any feedback as to a need to have a bachelors or an associates degree? I am in a program right now that is an associates and they do not offer a bachelors. Yet if I get the associates I am worried that it may not transfer later to a bachelors somewhere else. Do I really need a bachelors or can a career be made from an associates?"

Does your associates program require general education classes (not related to paralegal career) in addition to paralegal classes? If so, those general education classes can count for 2 years of the 4 years required to complete a bachelors degree, should you choose to pursue one in whatever major later on.

If you can possibly manage it, get the bachelor's. It will serve you well for the rest of your life if you have one and it will hurt you for the rest of your life if you don't.

The highest paid paralegals are those with master's degrees, the second highest are those with bachelor's degrees and post-baccalaureate certificates in paralegal studies. The third highest are those with associate's degrees.

The paralegal profession is quickly moving up to the point where a bachelor's degree is a minimum requirement for most firms. The Charlotte market is still small enough where you can get a position with an associate's, but it won't be so for long.

I need to do an online program due to my lifestyle. Is there any bachelors program that is both online and ABA approved? I have only found Pierce that is out of PA but it is a little expensive. Can anyone help?

The ABA will not approve any online programs. There are plenty of excellent programs. George Washington University has a great online master's program -- you can see it at onlinegwu.com

"Kward in Shallotte, North Carolina: "Do I really need a bachelors or can a career be made from an associates?"

You can go far with an Associate's but not having a Bachelor's can stop you from being everything you can be. Many "prestigious" law firms, companies, government entities, etc., either require or prefer a Bachelor's degree. Therefore, get a Bachelor's degree. The major doesn't really matter.

Good luck with your plans.

Hello to all you talented paralegals out there. I'm a recruiter in Oklahoma City, and I'm looking for a paralegal with estate planning experience. If anyone is interested (or knows someone who is), please drop me a line at jpelletier@westaff.com.

Thanks for your time!

I would like to know if a Masters Degree in Paralegal from a non ABA approved university is the better route over ABA approved Bachelor's program. I hold Bachelors and Masters degrees in Business Admin. Paralegal in Gaithersburg responded with reference to George Washington University's Masters program, however I can not find any information as to whether or not GWU is ABA approved.

Secondly, what are opinions about male paralegals. I am interested in the legal profession and believe I would enjoy the aspects of paralegal work (research etc.) without the demands of going through 3-4 years of Law School.

Expert Advice Needed.

GW is a highly selective, credit bearing master's degree, one of the only paralegal master's degrees in the country, and it is associated with the GW law school, one of the top law shcools in the country. It is not ABA approved.

I have spoken to many, many employers and legal recruiters about ABA approval, and they all say employers do not care one bit whether a program is ABA-approved.

If the school is unknown, you might want it to be ABA-approved to ensure that it is legitimate. But everybody knows GW is a great school, and you don't need the ABA to tell you that.

Men are doing quite well in the paralegal profession.

As a former personnel recruiter, I can tell you the one thing legal employers care most about is experience and knowlege. I had one girl who was aba graduate but little experience vs girls who had community college associate but more experience and they got the jobs. I never placed the aba graduate, she got a temp job on her own.

I would say if you have a choice, go for the aba school, however, if you want to work for the top firms. Remember, with the top firms there is also a grade require B+.

I do disagree with legal eagle to some degree in that if there are two candidates with approx same years of exp, they will go for the aba school. But top firms in my area are losening up on the aba requirements, somewhat, but not on having a bachelors and experience. Remember, each city is different. Small and mid sized firms really don't care, they want the experience.

Good luck!!!

Heidi what did you decide to do?

Paul in Petal, Mississippi: "I would like to know if a Masters Degree in Paralegal from a non ABA approved university is the better route over ABA approved Bachelor's program."

You don't need a Master's to be a paralegal. A Bachelor's is enough. A Master's won't open any more doors than a Bachelor's degree.

With that said, I think an ABA certificate is a must strictly from the standpoint that it qualifies you for ANY paralegal job which requires a certificate. An ABA certificate is the highest grade paralegal certificate obtainable.

"[W]hat are opinions about male paralegals. I am interested in the legal profession and believe I would enjoy the aspects of paralegal work (research etc.) without the demands of going through 3-4 years of Law School."

I am male and worked for a paralegal for more than eleven years.

I think male paralegals may suffer from a small amount of sexism. I emphasize "small." Traditionally, paralegals have been female. There are far more female paralegals than male paralegals. I think this is because the first paralegals started as legal secretaries, which are generally female. Guys becoming paralegals is relatively recent.

Male paralegals may also suffer from perception problems. Many people think that a man working in a law office is automatically a lawyer. Then, from time to time, you encounter people who think that law school is your next step because you are a male paralegal. They don't understand that paralegal is their career destination. I don't believe that women paralegals encounter the same perception.

I also think that some firms don't give the same paralegal employment consideration to men as they do women. Again, it's a perception problem. Some stubborn, old-school lawyers can't accept men as their legal assistants, or they only want female legal assistants - and the younger, the better. Sexism.

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Finally, and it all depends on the firm and lawyer, I wouldn't plan on doing much legal research as a paralegal. Legal research was one of my strengths. I earned a 98 (out of 100) in Legal Research and Writing in paralegal school. Along with legal writing I took to legal research immediately and loved it - but when I went to work I couldn't interest the lawyers in my first firm in my abilities. I understand why, in a way. They may have felt they were risking malpractice by assigning research to a non-lawyer legal assistant instead of doing it themselves or assigning it to an associate. Usually, fresh associates spend most of their early days in practice doing legal research.

In my second firm, I worked for a partner who was on law review at his law school. Fat chance of me getting any legal research assignments from him - not that I had the time.

Hope all this helps a little. Best of luck with your plans.

Paul in Petal, Mississippi: "I would like to know if a Masters Degree in Paralegal from a non ABA approved university is the better route over ABA approved Bachelor's program."

You don't need a Master's to be a paralegal. A Bachelor's is enough. A Master's won't open any more doors than a Bachelor's degree.

With that said, I think an ABA certificate is a must strictly from the standpoint that it qualifies you for ANY paralegal job which requires a certificate. An ABA certificate is the highest grade paralegal certificate obtainable.

"[W]hat are opinions about male paralegals. I am interested in the legal profession and believe I would enjoy the aspects of paralegal work (research etc.) without the demands of going through 3-4 years of Law School."

I am male and worked as[correction] a paralegal for more than eleven years.

I think male paralegals may suffer from a small amount of sexism. I emphasize "small." Traditionally, paralegals have been female. There are far more female paralegals than male paralegals. I think this is because the first paralegals started as legal secretaries, which are generally female. Guys becoming paralegals is relatively recent.

Male paralegals may also suffer from perception problems. Many people think that a man working in a law office is automatically a lawyer. Then, from time to time, you encounter people who think that law school is your next step because you are a male paralegal. They don't understand that paralegal is their career destination. I don't believe that women paralegals encounter the same perception.

I also think that some firms don't give the same paralegal employment consideration to men as they do women. Again, it's a perception problem. Some stubborn, old-school lawyers can't accept men as their legal assistants, or they only want female legal assistants - and the younger, the better. Sexism.

Continued next post...

(corrected)

Continued....

Finally, and it all depends on the firm and lawyer, I wouldn't plan on doing much legal research as a paralegal. Legal research was one of my strengths. I earned a 98 (out of 100) in Legal Research and Writing in paralegal school. Along with legal writing I took to legal research immediately and loved it - but when I went to work I couldn't interest the lawyers in my first firm in my abilities. I understand why, in a way. They may have felt they were risking malpractice by assigning research to a non-lawyer legal assistant instead of doing it themselves or assigning it to an associate. Usually, fresh associates spend most of their early days in practice doing legal research.

In my second firm, I worked for a partner who was on law review at his law school. Fat chance of me getting any legal research assignments from him - not that I had the time.

Hope all this helps a little. Best of luck with your plans.

To "Paul in Petal, Mississippi"

A Masters in Paralegal seems excessive to me. An Associates (2 year degree) is all that one really needs to become a paralegal. Of course, having a Bachelors degree (does not have to be in Paralegal studies) in addition to that would impress more employers. Choose an ABA approved school when you can.

Male paralegals are rare to see, but of course there are some. As the poster above indicated, it depends on the perception and progressiveness of the lawyer/law firm you're applying to.

Associate lawyers do most of the legal research, as far as I know.

I guess it depends upon where you live.

In the big cities, masters degrees are common. The paralegal profession is attratcing more men, and younger people, as it becomes more prestigious and more highly paid. It is quite common to find men in the paralegal corps and in positions of leadership in the big firms.

Many firms, banks, agencies, and corporations are using paralegals to do substantive legal work, including legal research. This is especially true for the more highly educated paralegals.

paralegal in Gaithersburg, Maryland: "I guess it depends upon where you live.

"In the big cities, masters degrees are common...."

Denver is a big city. Not once in eleven years in the legal profession have I seen job ads or posts which require a Master's degree. A significant number of ads require Bachelor's, of course. A significant number require "paralegal certificates," with many of those requiring ABA certificates.

That's not to say that many Master's holders aren't paralegals; I know at least one. I have seen nonlawyer JDs applying for paralegal work. I've also seen or known licensed attorneys work as paralegals.

Really, the bottom line is an Associate's, with a Bachelor's being much more preferred. And, again, the major doesn't really matter.

"Many firms, banks, agencies, and corporations are using paralegals to do substantive legal work, including legal research...."

I agree that organizations that employ paralegals use them to do substantive work. I understand substantive work to mean such things as drafting pleadings, preparing disclosures, preparing expert witness designations, writing client opinion letters and writing demand letters. "Advanced" work that associates ordinarily would do. I've done all that. I do not agree about legal research. Of course, paralegal responsibilities and their titles vary from organization to organization.

GG in Birmingham, Alabama said: Heidi what did you decide to do?

Thanks for asking. I enrolled with the UW Paralagel Studies program, which I enjoy very much. I have learned a lot so far in just six weeks. However, I feel as if I no longer have a life - full time work and night school...

The way one of my teachers explained the importance of ABA as it applies to Seattle, was that it does not matter much when you compare a CC associates/certificate program to a bachelors/certificate program - bachelor (in anything) and certificate will usually be to your advantage.

I currently work at a medium-sized law firm, where one of the paralegals that I work with received her certificate from Edmonds CC a few years back - she's very good at what she does. However, I have heard from past UW certified students that UW has a long history with many law firms in Seattle. They do a lot of placement with firms like Perkins Coie, Woodcock Washburn, and many others.

Why don't you call potential employers? Ask to speak to the office manager. Say that you are researching training for the paralegal field and would value their advice. After all it is their opinion that counts.

If the majority point you to one school or the other you will know.

Follow up with a thank you note; you will want to follow up with the helpful managers later to inquire about an internship. The internship will be more important that the school training.

P.S. Ask what software they use. You may want to learn Quick Books or some other accounting system.

That's excellent advice. Especially the part about the thank you note. If you approach the firms in a professional and engaging manner, you may end up with a job offer.

I don't agree with calling firm administrators. Most administrators and law firm office managers are busy people and don't appreciate being bothered. Put yourself in their shoes. You are likely to catch them at busy times and annoy them or will just be put into their voice mails, if you're lucky enough to get past the receptionist.

I repeat my earlier suggestion: Go to firm websites and look for paralegal bios. You will see how much education they have and where they went to school. Review enough bios and you will get a good idea how to proceed with your training.

Another idea, again, is to look at job ads for paralegals and review the job requirements. One more idea I've heard elsewhere is to speak to someone in your local paralegal association.

I have a problem. Hope you all can help. I want to go to school for Paralegal studies but the only schools offering it in my area are non-ABA approved. The closest (and only one in Utah) school that is approved is 1 1/2 hours away. Do I go for it anyway? Also, do you all think an Associate's degree will be sufficient in today's work force? Thank you!

Look at it this way. Don't get an ABA paralegal certificate and you will likely deprive yourself of opportunities. With an ABA certificate you will qualify for ANY paralegal job which requires a certificate.

An Associate's degree is the minimum paralegal education requirement. A Bachelor's degree is better and is all you need. You don't need a Master's.

Paralegals with master's degrees earn the highest salaries of all.

Paralegals with bachelor's degrees plus post-bacc certificates earn the next highest salaries.

These stats come from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics (www.bls.gov).

No employer will turn away a good applicant with a high GPA, a bachelor's degree, and a post-bacc certificate from a good school just because the certificate comes from a program is not ABA-approved -- especially if the certificate is from an accredited university.

If the non-ABA program is an otherwise good program, it probably enjoys a good reputation in your community. It is likely that most of the paralegals in your community will have attended that program, as it is the only one in the area. So you should be fine going to the local one.

Try asking the paralegals in your town where they received their certificates.

legal eagle in Silver Spring, Maryland: "Paralegals with master's degrees earn the highest salaries of all."

Not true. Experience primarily determines one's salary range. On this page, www.bls.gov/oco/ocos114.htm , there is only one passage that quotes "master's degree":

Education and training. There are several ways to become a paralegal. The most common is through a community college paralegal program that leads to an associate degree. Another common method of entry, mainly for those who already have a college degree, is earning a certificate in paralegal studies. **A small number of schools offer a bachelor’s and master’s degree** in paralegal studies. Finally, some employers train paralegals on the job.

Further, on that page's "significant points" section, the BLS says the following:

Most entrants have an associate degree in paralegal studies, or a bachelor’s degree coupled with a certificate in paralegal studies.

(emphasis added)

There is nothing on that page that sets forth that paralegals with master's degrees earn the highest salaries of all. This page, also from the BLS, www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes232011.htm , which sets forth paralegal wages, is also silent on the "master's degree" issue.

Further, this page from the American Bar Association, www.abanet.org/legalservices/paralegals/career.html , discusses, among other things, paralegal education programs. Nothing here about master's degrees as well. Look for yourself.

"No employer will turn away a good applicant with a high GPA, a bachelor's degree, and a post-bacc certificate from a good school just because the certificate comes from a program is not ABA-approved -- especially if the certificate is from an accredited university."

Even if the employer sets forth "paralegal certificate from an ABA-approved program" in the job ad?

You really should read your sources before quoting them.

legal eagle in Silver Spring, Maryland: "Paralegals with master's degrees earn the highest salaries of all."

Not true. Experience primarily determines one's salary range. On this page, www.bls.gov/oco/ocos114.htm , there is only one passage that quotes "master's degree":

Education and training. There are several ways to become a paralegal. The most common is through a community college paralegal program that leads to an associate degree. Another common method of entry, mainly for those who already have a college degree, is earning a certificate in paralegal studies. **A small number of schools offer a bachelor'€™s and master'€™s degree** in paralegal studies. Finally, some employers train paralegals on the job.

(emphasis added)

Further, on that page's "significant points" section, the BLS says the following:

Most entrants have an associate degree in paralegal studies, or a bachelor'€™s degree coupled with a certificate in paralegal studies.

There is nothing on that page that sets forth that paralegals with master's degrees earn the highest salaries of all.

This page, also from the BLS, www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes232011.htm , which sets forth paralegal wages, is also silent on the "master's degree" issue.

Further, this page from the American Bar Association, www.abanet.org/legalservices/paralegals/career.html , discusses, among other things, paralegal education programs. Nothing here about master's degrees as well. Look for yourself.

"No employer will turn away a good applicant with a high GPA, a bachelor's degree, and a post-bacc certificate from a good school just because the certificate comes from a program is not ABA-approved -- especially if the certificate is from an accredited university."

Even if the employer sets forth "paralegal certificate from an ABA-approved program" in the job ad?

You really should read your sources before quoting them.

legal eagle in Silver Spring, Maryland
"Paralegals with master's degrees earn the highest salaries of all.
Paralegals with bachelor's degrees plus post-bacc certificates earn the next highest salaries.
These stats come from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics (www.bls.gov)." -

I really don't think a masters degree is neccessary for a paralegal career. The expenses and time spent on a masters degree will not increase a paralegal's salary; years of experience will.

Heidi in Bellingham, Washington: Although [the Washington Extension Certification Program] is NOT directly ABA-approved, it is approved by the University of Washington School of Law - which IS ABA-approved."

Although old, I want to address that point. That is a non sequitur. Just because a law school is ABA accredited does not mean in the least any paralegal program it may offer is ABA approved. Law schools and paralegal schools are mutually exclusive. Most every law school is ABA-accredited. A law school that wants ABA approval of its paralegal program has to obtain that approval separately.

Congratulations, GG, on joining a great program. Don't worry --you'll get your life back when school is done and it will be even better, because you'll be a paralegal!

I gathered that "GG" was a former recruiter and was not attending paralegal school.

My bad -- I mean, congratulations Heidi.

Thanks, Displaced Legal Professional!!!

Sure!

Heidi may be finished by now. She will soon find out that getting that first job is a tough road to hoe. At least around here, few paralegal jobs are open, even for experienced people, and a host of excellent, well qualified people are competing for them.

I have heard that with the economy getting a little tighter 1) there will be more jobs for paralegals since they are less expensive to hire and maintain than lawyers; 2) there will be more jobs in litigation and fewer in corporate law as companies grow less and sue more.

So job seekers should focus on honing their litigation skills -- learn the major litigation technologies (Summation, Concordance, CaseMap, Trial Director, electronic filing), get comfortable with LexisNexis and Westlaw, and be sure they know the major litigation documents: pleadings, discovery demands and responses, notices, briefs, motions, and settlement materials.