Choosing between ABA-approved and non-ABA approved certification program...

unknown in Orinda, California said: I am looking into enrolling in the UC extension program for Paralegal. But the downside to the program is the expense, it's not ABA approved and its not accredited by any schools listed in the National Federation of Paralegals. Since this college is well known I believe that the program is worth taking. However, I would like some feedback from an outside prospective. What do you think?

Are you kidding? The University of California is a prestigious community of universities accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges. I would not worry about what any paralegal organization has to say, since states will gradually take over the regulation of paralegals and many of these organizations will become irrelevant.

A lot of people would love to attend a UC program. If you can swing it, then go for it. Keep in mind though that regardless of what paralegal program you graduate from, it doesn't mean that you will find a job. But having a paralegal credential from UC will definately enhance your resume.

BG is Carlsbad is absolutely correct. Accreditation is a much higher level of legitimacy than approval.

Neither the ABA nor NFPA can accredit programs. Only a regional accrediting agency can do that. The Western Association of Colleges and Schools is an official regional accrediting agency.

The ABA is a private, for profit organization that approves programs for a fee. NFPA is another private, for profit association that lists members on its website.

The UC system is fully accredited and, as BG points out, an excellent and highly regarded system.

Also adding my two cents here, the ABA has been under a lot of fire lately. Perhaps the ABA at one time had much influence and was well respected in the legal community however that organization may end up being investigated by Congress. I also agree not to put much stock into finding an ABA "approved" program.

However I do disagree regarding the NFPA. The NFPA is a pretty well respected organization which sets high standards in its criteria in approving schools. As Toni and BG pointed out, just make sure the college is indeed fully accredited and cross check with NFPA if the college is on its approved school list. Your courses should include the following: legal research, writing, litigation, corporate law, tort, ethics (most colleges provide a 2-3 hour lecture in ethics), and an internship. Electives should include real property, T&E, criminal/penal law, contracts, healthcare law, and elder law. Having Bachelors in conjunction with the certificate will also increase your chances in getting a job.

All the best!

Thanks very much for clearing that up, tmf. I didn't mean to imply that NFPA was anything less than legitimate. MFPA is an excellent organization that does a LOT of good for the paralegal profession. I just meant to say that they do not accredit programs, as the writer seemed to believe.

The electives I am interested in taking are Tort, CA procedure, Family Law and possibly Contract or Criminal Law. I found out by the Bureau that the UC extension program is accredited by Western Association of Schools and Colleges. Which means it's official. Thanks everyone for your input and the help.

Toni in Washington, District of Columbia said: Thanks very much for clearing that up, tmf. I didn't mean to imply that NFPA was anything less than legitimate. MFPA is an excellent organization that does a LOT of good for the paralegal profession. I just meant to say that they do not accredit programs, as the writer seemed to believe.

Oh no worries. I only wish the NFPA had the power and the recources to accredit programs.

tmf1977@aol.com in Yonkers, New York said: Oh no worries. I only wish the NFPA had the power and the recources to accredit programs.

No need to since most colleges and universities are already accredited and have a skilled faculty trained at putting together paralegal programs. I have a great deal more faith in the faculty of the University of California than I do in a paralegal organization looking to sell memberships and products.

Besides, the states will eventually assume control over paralegals through licensing, at which point paralegal organizations will likely become irrelevant, once paralegals are obtaining certification and licensing through the state.

While I am not a fan of any organization that has an ulterior motive (::cough:: the ABA!), the NFPA however has done a very good job in upholding integrity and standards in the Paralegal field. Unlike the ABA, NFPA does not charge fees to schools in its recommendation process.

We are indeed living in some very interesting times especially for those of us working in the legal field. I think people are now starting to question the value of the JD, and especially the existence of so many low ranked law schools. I cannot begin to express the number of newly minted attorneys I have come across who do not know anything about procedures, locating information, and even writing. Working as a paralegal for 13 years now, I never experienced anything like this before. The deal is that there are some things attorneys charge huge rates for (i.e. residential closings, filing and drafting non-complicated wills, simple contacts, lower court civil actions), a well educated and trained, licensed non-attorney can carry out the same tasks. Many states are finally catching onto this.

tfm1977, while I'm not a big fan of paralegal organizations, I would have to say in all fairness that the NFPA is the better of them and has supported the freelance paralegal movement to some extent.

I really don't see much future in the paralegal field unless some form of licensing allows paralegals to deliver routine legal services to the public, so they don't have to depend on lawyers for a living, kind of along the lines of your licensed non-attorneys.

I agree with you about the value of a JD. I think many law schools are going to fall by the wayside over the next ten years, since many of their graduates can't find work. I've noticed more and more lawyers offering their services as paralegals on craigslist.

tmf1977 in Yonkers, New York said: I cannot begin to express the number of newly minted attorneys I have come across who do not know anything about procedures, locating information, and even writing.

What do you thing is the reason for this? Aren't they supposed to learn these things in law school?

BG in Carlsbad, California said: What do you thing is the reason for this? Aren't they supposed to learn these things in law school?

You know I'm not sure. I think the standards in education in the US have been lowered with each passing decade that's it's come to the point that you now have a generation that has a large percentage of people who do not possess as strong skill set. You also have a great deal of low ranked law schools which take in many students. A few law schools even accept applicants who score less than 150 on the LSAT.

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BG in Carlsbad, California said: tfm1977, while I'm not a big fan of paralegal organizations, I would have to say in all fairness that the NFPA is the better of them and has supported the freelance paralegal movement to some extent.

I really don't see much future in the paralegal field unless some form of licensing allows paralegals to deliver routine legal services to the public, so they don't have to depend on lawyers for a living, kind of along the lines of your licensed non-attorneys.

I agree with you about the value of a JD. I think many law schools are going to fall by the wayside over the next ten years, since many of their graduates can't find work. I've noticed more and more lawyers offering their services as paralegals on craigslist.

True that. However experience at a reduced price will usually win out. Though it is frightening to see more adverts pop up encouraging JD's to apply. I think paralegals will eventually replace the legal secretary. When you come to think of it, paralegals do have an edge over secretary that her/his primary function is just to prepare stuff. At least paralegals for the most part are trained and educated in law to a degree.

I've been following the scam blog movement now for over a year and many newly minted attorneys are having problems working in a support role. I can't even imagine how fusterating it may be to have a six figure loan to pay off, and you can't find a decent paying job. I do think the future of 3T and 4T law schools is doomed. Some of these low ranked schools charges as much as 1T and 2T law schools.

Pam Cardinali in Elmer, New Jersey said: I live in the Phila/Wilmington metro area and there are a lot of jobs for paralegals. Maybe you just need to move.
I'm working on both my PL cert at the CC level (and ABA approved) and my masters at GWU. Each program focuses on a different area of law. The CC program is geared toward the small office environment (family, real estate, etc.) while GWU focuses on international, IP, legislative. I couldn't find a CC program that offered the courses that are offered by GWU, which is the reason I enrolled in that program. Many of my CC classmates are getting jobs before they even finish the program.
I'm hoping GWU will get ABA approved, as in NJ most firms prefer this. Toni, is this in the works?

Hi,
I applied to GW Master's in Paralegal Studies. Can you share your experience? How do you like the classes? Any comments are greatly appreciated!

tmf1977 in Yonkers, New York said: A few law schools even accept applicants who score less than 150 on the LSAT.

There are a lot of people who perform exceptionally well on tests, yet have no common sense or reasoning ability.

tmf1977 in Yonkers, New York said:

I've been following the scam blog movement now for over a year and many newly minted attorneys are having problems working in a support role. I can't even imagine how fusterating it may be to have a six figure loan to pay off, and you can't find a decent paying job. I do think the future of 3T and 4T law schools is doomed. Some of these low ranked schools charges as much as 1T and 2T law schools.

Anyone who would amass over a 100k (or more) in debts to study law should be taking a basic math and accounting courses, instead of law.

rebeccavaz in Lancaster, Pennsylvania said: I got to transfer 61 credits from my associates degree to Peirce.

Congratulations Rebecca! I remember when you started you were having trouble with one of your assignments. Just look at you now. Keep at it and you will go far!

jslinfla in Delray Beach, Florida said: Congratulations Rebecca! I remember when you started you were having trouble with one of your assignments. Just look at you now. Keep at it and you will go far!

Thanks so much! But since then, I've transfered to Saint Mary-of-the-Woods College's Paralegal Program. I absolutely love it! I have 75 credits towards my Bachelor degree with a 3.85 GPA!! I also have a year in at a law firm as a paralegal in Family Law. Very educational, very rewarding. Thanks again for the encouragement.

Hello,

I'm currently in the Paralegal Studies Program at GW and absolutely love it! The program is rigorous and one needs to be self-determined to succeed. There are several assignments each week so I'm always busy. I would most definitely recommend such program. I could have selected a Paralegal Certificate after my Bachelor's degree. I chose a Master's because (1) I wanted a Graduate-level education and (2) I just moved to Washington, DC which is a very competitive city where many individuals hold graduate degrees.

paralegal in Gaithersburg, Maryland said: It is very rigorous and requires dedication, commitment, and discipline. That's why it is so selective. It is definitely not for everyone.

GW requires a GPA of 3.0 or higher, two excellent references, and a well-written statement of purpose. It is an excellent program with excellent professors and excellent students. Once the first few graduates hit the streets, no one will have any doubt about its legitimacy.

rebeccavaz in Lancaster, Pennsylvania said: Thanks so much! But since then, I've transfered to Saint Mary-of-the-Woods College's Paralegal Program. I absolutely love it! I have 75 credits towards my Bachelor degree with a 3.85 GPA!! I also have a year in at a law firm as a paralegal in Family Law. Very educational, very rewarding. Thanks again for the encouragement.

You bet! Peirce College or Saint Mary of the Woods, it does not matter. What matters is that you are happy and find your work and schooling fulfilling. Like I said, keep at it and you will go far! You are very welcome for the encouragement. We are on this earth for a limited time. Why shouldn't we encourage and help each other? All my best to you.

To have an ABA or not to have ABA? That is the question.

I've read most of the comments posted here. I was told that the "bigger" law firms prefer ABA certification whereas the little old man that hung his shingle on main street does not need it.

Yes or No? My issue is time limited. If I choose an ABA approved school it, of course, takes me longer to get thru the program and I'm not sure how much longer my current job is going to hold out.

AND does anybody know anything about The Center for Legal Studies?? Anybody gone thru them at all? If so, can you give me more information?

One last question: How do you volunteer or get your foot in the door to get some experience? That sounds like silly question right? But I've never done the volunteer/internship thing before. I have no clue.

Thanks!

Personally, I would opt in obtaining certificate from an ABA program just to be safe to keep your employment options open (especially in this tough market). I would not recommend a non-ABA approved program *unless* the program is taught at a T50 school (which is rare to begin with). If you already have a bachelors, most ABA certificate programs take a year, or two semesters to complete.

As far as experience goes, you can do three things. One, select a program which offers an internship. Some colleges will allow you to work at a local firm or court for credit. Check with the schools that you are interested in attending that an internship or work for credit can be arranged. Second, you can volunteer at legal services or a pro-bono law firm. Just google "legal services" and nearby city to locate an office. Also check idealist.org for volunteer opportunities. Another option (although not that desirable) is to check Craigs List for entry level jobs. I find that smaller firms and solos post advertisements in Craigs List over sites like Indeed or Career Builder since CL offers a cheaper rate for advertising. Key terms to look for entry level positions are request for GPA, "recent grad", "interest in law", "interest in attending law school", or "willing to train".

Hope this helps. All the best.

You don't need an ABA certificate to work as a paralegal. It's total bunk and only a very small percentage that make up the paralegal workforce have completed an ABA program. The vast majority of paralegals working today have a two-year degree from a community college or a certificate in paralegal studies from an accredited college or university. The US Bureau of Labor has clearly documented this fact.

The only time you need an ABA credential is if you were to graduate from law school, since they accredit law schools, and NOT paralegal programs.

Look for an affordable community college that offers a paralegal program. That is the ticket that you need to work in this field, along with some experience.

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Most community colleges offer paralegal programs which are approved by the ABA and are pretty affordable. You can check out list of colleges which offer ABA approved programs through ABA's website:

apps.americanbar.org/legalservices/paralegals/directory/home.html

As BG mentioned, there really is no set in stone standard for attorneys/law firms having to hire paralegals with ABA certificate of completion of studies. However bear in mind that in some markets, having the ABA approved certificate does help. I also agree with BG in being careful when selecting a program in that it does not cost you too much money, especially in a tight job market.

Good Luck!

I am also considering a career being a paralegal. I currently attend the community college and was going to get my associate in science for a paralegal. After reading some other comments, I'm wondering if just an associates degree will be enough? Should I continue school to go on to my bachelor's?

Don't waste your time on the paralegal stuff.

Katy,

I would recommend you get a bachelor's. That is the minimum requirement for most jobs; not just paralegal.

Good luck.

I agree with Mary: "Don't waste your time on the paralegal stuff."

There's no work in this field and has been overhyped by schools selling expensive paralegal programs so they can line their pockets. Paralegals are being replaced with legal software that is getting very sophisticated. Best bet is to hire a career counselor to advise you on a true career path leading to a job.

Respectfully, I totally disagree with Mary and BG. There are a lot of paralegal jobs here; students are being hired before they graduate. Perhaps your job search strategy could use some work.

This is a DIRECT quote from the ABA Approval guidelines. Notice the last line, even they state that ABA status should NOT impact hiring / job placement.

apps.americanbar.org/.../paralegals/.../paralegalguidelines2008.pdf

G-102
The American Bar Association believes that there should be a number of ways in which a person can demonstrate competence as a paralegal, one of which is the completion of an approved program as determined by this document. Although this document is concerned only with formal education programs for the training of paralegals, it is not intended to limit entry into
this career field by other means.

Toni in Washington, District of Columbia said: Respectfully, I totally disagree with Mary and BG. There are a lot of paralegal jobs here; students are being hired before they graduate. Perhaps your job search strategy could use some work.

Not in California.

For California this is a no brainer.

Go to the community college for a very inexpensive ABA approved Paralegal program versus going to UC Extension whose program is very expensive and not ABA approved.

If you have financial need then you might even have no costs at all.

Paralegal work is being done more and more by attorneys. California has a glut of unemployed attorneys along with a poor economy. Most legal firms are in a cost cutting mode and even some of the big firms are requiring lawyers to do paralegal and legal secretarial work.

This is very true, and it's not just in California. I work for the federal gov't and I'm amazed at how many JDs are working as paralegals. There's a glut of attorneys in DC, just like everywhere else, and they apply for even the lowliest legal assistant jobs (in the gov't, those are really legal secretary jobs, but of course no one wants to be called a secretary anymore). I would never advise someone to get an expensive paralegal certificate these days, especially if they have to go into major debt for it. I just talked someone out of pursuing an overpriced MA in Paralegal Studies. Honestly, these schools should be ashamed of themselves.

I would avoid the Heald College NON ABA accredited paralegal program. You will spend over $20K and have a worthless diploma.

To "guest " in California: a paralegal credential from a reputable, accredited school is every but as legitimate and valid as one from a school that has been approved by the ABA.

The GW program is not ABA approved and we have graduates in major law firms, the DOJ, Department of State, the World Bank, the House of Representative, And Exxon to name just a very few.

Look for a program the is accredited by a regional accredited agency. Regional agency (for example, the Middle States Association of Colleges and School, which accredits GW, are the only agencies that are officially recognized and can grant accreditation.

To "Experienced Paralegal" in DC: it is an urban legend that attorneys all over the country are working as paralegals. That would only be true in places where there are no paralegals available because most firms do not want to hire lawyers as paralegals.Paralegal work is completely different from lawyer work, and lawyers are not properly prepared to do what paralegals do. Paralegals are not junior lawyers, they are entirely different professionals in the legal sphere. Hiring a lawyer to do paralegal work would be like hiring a plumber to do your electrical work. Ask any paralegal manager and he will tell you the same thing.

The validity of a paralegal certificate is based on the ability of a graduate to find a job ??

Paralegal is likely to be a dying field given the glut of lawyers that are willing to do paralegal work. Why should I hire a paralegal when I can get a lawyer at the same price ?? If you are young and just starting your career then you are likely to be much better off going straight to law school than becoming a paralegal.

Sorry but a lawyer can really do all the work of a paralegal and if the lawyer wants to be a solo practioner then doing paralegal work certainly helps. Paralegal managers only exist in big law firms and for the most part the big law firms are not hiring.

There are a lot of baby attorneys working for $50,000 a year. And some for $40,000 a year.

At least fifteen years ago I saw baby attorneys working as paralegals at big firms - hoping to get an associate spot.

To guest in Oakland - If "paralegal is such a dying field..." Why does the US Department of Labor list it on the top 10 list of "bright outlook careers" and project a 28% rise in the profession between now and 2018??

The fact is paralegals ARE NOT attorneys. They do not do the same work and as a hiring manager, I guaranty I would pass over an attorney any day if I'm looking to hire a paralegal. ( Even if they were willing to work for less money )

Where I work, about 25% of the paralegals are JD's who couldn't find attorney jobs. Two-three years ago, JD's wouldn't even be considered for these paralegal jobs thinking the JD would leave at first opportunity for an attorney job. Now the chances that any of these JD's will ever get an attorney job is slim to none, so now they are seen as good values for paralegal jobs.

Para Prof in Houston, Texas said: To guest in Oakland - If "paralegal is such a dying field..." Why does the US Department of Labor list it on the top 10 list of "bright outlook careers" and project a 28% rise in the profession between now and 2018??

The fact is paralegals ARE NOT attorneys. They do not do the same work and as a hiring manager, I guaranty I would pass over an attorney any day if I'm looking to hire a paralegal. ( Even if they were willing to work for less money )

The Bureau of Labor Statistics has been completely discredited as a reliable predictor of employment. The most illustrative example is the 2008 to 2018 prediction of a booming IT field which if accurate would have had IT employment 35% higher in 2012 than in 2008. The reality is that LESS people are employed in IT in 2012 than in 2008.

Just because says something doesn't necessarily make it so.