Choosing between ABA-approved and non-ABA approved certification program... |
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Paralegal in Dallas, Texas 39 months ago |
kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: We all live and learn. MORE important- you got the benes and 401)k match - the key to your future. 1st paralegal job - you could get in the 401(k) right away. Profit sharing and 401(k)match you have to get vested in - 20% a year, so at year 5 you were fully vested. Profit sharing was about $2000/year. 2nd paralegal job - one year wait to contribute to 4019k), two years before you could get the match. Profit sharing after 1 year, but fully vested from get-go. Profit sharing about $3000/year. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Paralegal in Dallas, Texas said: 1st paralegal job - you could get in the 401(k) right away. Profit sharing and 401(k)match you have to get vested in - 20% a year, so at year 5 you were fully vested. Profit sharing was about $2000/year. Thank for the information Dallas. I was enrolled in Business IRA within 4 months of hire, with match. That was the best deal. Other firms, had 1 year wait. Good reason why job hopping does not pay. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Sure! It has been said that there can be no silly questions, yet, well, this may be the first. I have two questions. Here it goes, Displaced, you once suggested,
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey said: Hello Toms River - DPL will probably comment later. IF you have your 4 year Bachelor's degree, you would then want to obtain a paralegal certificate from an ABA approved Paralegal School. It is a 1 years program. September to May- like college. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Not necessarily. The person can earn a paralegal certificate from either a free-standing paralegal school or from a college that offers a certificate program to Bachelor's degree holders. One can complete these programs in a matter of months sometimes, especially if one can attend full time. Some people opt for earning a second Bachelor's degree in paralegal studies. Their prior college coursework should count toward GE and elective requirements, at least. Depends on the college. Displaced, you are indeed helpful! Again, much appreciation.
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Paralegal in Dallas, Texas 39 months ago |
My post-bac paralegal program was a 5 month daytime thing. They are not credit classes though. Nothing is transferable. All you need is that certificate. Well, and then a ton of luck in finding that first job. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Probably because the program is outside the realm of the college's ordinary academic program and not subject to ordinary admissions. That would be my SWAG. Not to worry as long as the program is ABA approved. You may be able to apply for ordinary admission, transfer credits from your four-year degree and earn a second Bachelor's. In that case your paralegal courses would count as college credit. But, again, a second Bachelor's degree is unnecessary. Your ticket is already punched because you've earned a Bachelor's degree. You need only a paralegal certificate. You were top in your class in Legal Research/Writing course while attending the paralegal program, yet, firms fear risking malpractice & that is their logic for not allowing you to conduct legal research, ok, we ought to understand that position. Tell me, what is the logic behind teaching students Legal Research in the first place? Not being disrespectful here, just wondering. The legal research & legal writing course you've completed, would that be similar to the type of legal research/writing a 1L student takes during their first year at a law program? Or is that an entirely different type of Legal research/writing course? Finally, can you speak to my fears, I mean, how intense, exactly, how difficult can I expect the Paralegal studies program to be? I'm a bit uncertain to my own abilities. In order to be successfully in that program, (it think)one needs to be much more than determined. I do wish to be realistic. It's important to have, well, one has to have an aptitude for it & I truly don't have any prior law experience. I'm entering the workforce for the first time. |
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Director in Washington, District of Columbia 39 months ago |
You have to be very careful when you ask for advice. While Diplaced Legal Professional has strong opinions on the paralegal profession and the paralegal education system, DLP has no actual expertise. As a program director and professor of paralegal studies for almost 20 years, I can tell you that DLP is often wrong about many things, including his assertion that law firms do not allow paralegals to conduct legal research. That is patently false. Paralegals do conduct legal research; it is a major portion of what they do. When paralegals conduct research, a lawyer must always review and take responsibility for the product. GW's Legal Research and Writing course is similar to, though not exactly the same as, a first year law school course. Georgetown University's program is similar to GW's, although it places more emphasis on print resources in the beginning than does GW. Each school's LR&W course is different, so you should look at the LR&W course when you are looking for a program to enter. Every program is different in it intensity and curriculum. If you have a bachelor's degree and a good GPA, you should be able to succeed in just about any paralegal studies program. Attend an information session, speak to the director, look at the curriculum, ask to speak to professors or other students, and you should be able to gauge if the program is a good fit for you. Good luck. |
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Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia 39 months ago |
I respectfully disagree. This is one of those areas where paralegal schools/programs really mislead students. A lot of us come out of these programs fully expecting to do research because that's what these programs like to imply, but the reality is that the associates are going to try to keep any research projects for themselves, ESPECIALLY now, in this economy when so many associates not only can't make their hours, they're terrified of getting laid off. And frankly, even when the economy was good, I seriously doubt many paralegals were assigned legal research projects. It's just the reality of law firm life, especially in big firms. |
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Director in Washington, District of Columbia 39 months ago |
You raise some good points. This economy is changing everything, and the old models are not necessarily valid today. But paralegals have traditionally done and continue to do legal research. Perhaps not in your firm, but in many. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Director in Washington, District of Columbia said: You raise some good points. This economy is changing everything, and the old models are not necessarily valid today. But paralegals have traditionally done and continue to do legal research. Perhaps not in your firm, but in many. Dear Professor.
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Director in Washington, District of Columbia 39 months ago |
Thank you for that wise reminder that we all have valuable opinions and knowledge to contribute. Too often we devolve into acrimony. Any student who does well in undergaduate school schould be able to succeed in a post-baccalaureate paralegal program. It is not necessary to have a legal or pre-law bachelor's degree. In fact, law schools do not require legal backgrounds either. If you made dean's list and have a social work background, you should do quite well in any program. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Director in Washington, District of Columbia said: Thank you for that wise reminder that we all have valuable opinions and knowledge to contribute. Too often we devolve into acrimony. Hello All, I've located a ABA approved paralegal program which turns out to be within miles from where I reside, yet, I seek to know whether or not it is equal too / or would it be considered a Lesser of a degree than the initial Post BA Cert. in Paralegal Studies offered at that private 4 yr Inst. I've mentioned & listed on this post? Can you please open the link below, review it & advise me as compared to that 4 yr. Inst.? I am not sure whether I ought to opt for the 4 yr Inst & just accept the long drive to and from the 4 yr. Inst. I merely want to make the best and most informed decision. Help please. www.brookdalecc.edu/PDFFiles/Paralegal%20Studies%20Program%20A.pdf |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I glanced at the .PDF. You'll be fine as long as the program is ABA approved. It makes no difference at all if a two year or four year school offers a program as long as it is ABA approved. As I wrote before, I attended a free-standing ABA approved paralegal school which was not associated with a college. I suggest you talk to the school, particularly if it is close. Ask about placement rate. (You'll probably be told the school places all of its graduates. Don't believe it.) You could ask to see its ABA accreditation. Also ask about financial aid, if that's an issue for you. It was for me; my paralegal school cheerfully arranged for a Stafford and other loan for me so fast my head spun. Also ask if attorneys teach the classes. Hey Displaced, good to have you back on board! Was looking for your reply most of my morning. Great input, worth repeating to you, GREAT GREAT GREAT job. Thanks for your time today. Yeah, I opened the link as well, it does state in black & white, it is ABA approved program, or at least I hope that I am reading it correctly, and not reading /"seeing" what I wish to see. I will BRAVE up here and will certainly open my mouth to request and ask to see its ABA accreditation. Guess "seeing" actually paper work to view its credentials is a must these days. Again, thanks for the straight to the point, honest hard facts to all my concerns. Truth is what I always seek in my life. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I think legal research is taught primarily as part of legal writing. Part of legal research is Shepherdizing, meaning you determine if something you've found is still good law. Legal research is another weapon in your arsenal. Whether or not attorneys opt to harness your skills, legal research is still an important paralegal skill. A paralegal needs to know her/his way around the law library and/or WESTLAW. Glad to have been so very fortunate to be "speaking" with you Displaced. You will not be soon forgotten by me. Your Supreme Expertise are priceless & hope to one day be in business with you and your wife. I'm nervous about my future & new academic journey, yet, will be moving with great information, so how can one go wrong? I'll keep update & posting......... |
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Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia 39 months ago |
Also, be careful about believing what these schools tell you before you enroll, especially considering how expensive most of them are. The whole legal research discussion reminded me of this. I don't know if schools still do this, but back in the day a lot of them made it sound as if you'd practically be a mini-attorney just by signing up for their 4-month program. I wish a forum like this had been around back when I was thinking of paralegal school. |
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
[QUOTE who="Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado"
Hey they Displaced, and greetings Experienced IP paralegal in Washington.
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gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: They do! There is a voice inside me, it is sort of a strong sense which today dictates that I reevaluate my plans or even better yet make new plans. Yes, new plans it is! In my home, the wise often exclaim “if I only knew them---What I know Now” they would have navigated life a bit differently. To all out there posting, who have already entered the field of paralegal I ask, if you could revisit the past------what would you have done differently as it relates to a career choice? Thanks to all from a late bloomer just trying to figure it all out!!!!!!!!!
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Paralegal in Dallas, Texas 39 months ago |
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Director in Gaithersburg, Maryland 39 months ago |
Texas seems to be enlightened regarding paralegals. The new Harris County (Houston) DA is seeking to place a paralegal in every criminal court (22 felony courts and 15 misdemeanor courts). A paralegal would replace one of the four prosecutors in each court. There is an organizational chart showing this, so it's more than a rumor. The plan needs approval of the Commissioner's Court. |
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Director in Gaithersburg, Maryland 39 months ago |
I am just passing on some news I heard. I didn't actually write the Houston courts policy, Dis. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
gotogether in Toms River, New Jersey said: Hello All, If you are interested in x Paralegal program, you call, ask for a meeting to get the information in person. A 4 hour drive to school is ridiculous- and not doable. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Second, a 1 year program, ABA approved is all you need. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Director in Gaithersburg, Maryland said: Texas seems to be enlightened regarding paralegals. Hum- if there is no prosecutor in the court, who is prosecuting the case? A paralegal cannot represent a cliet in court of law. |
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Director in Gaithersburg, Maryland 39 months ago |
That would be a paralegal in every court IN ADDITION TO the lawyers. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Some people thrive under pressure; some interviewers ask candidates if they can work under pressure. Perhaps they can, but unreasonable pressure and ridiculous policies, as I just wrote about, above, and which I experienced more times than I would have liked, do a number on you over time. Excellent comment. Pressure on a given day, or a string of days to complete a project is one thing. Unreasonable pressure as an ongoing work environment WILL take a toll on you- big time. It can cause you to hate the job, hate the boss, want to scream out loud.
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: Excellent comment. Pressure on a given day, or a string of days to complete a project is one thing. Unreasonable pressure as an ongoing work environment WILL take a toll on you- big time. It can cause you to hate the job, hate the boss, want to scream out loud. opps- "regular" basis |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
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WorkingnineTofive in Toms River, New Jersey 39 months ago |
kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: If you are interested in x Paralegal program, you call, ask for a meeting to get the information in person. Hey kmm. No confrontation from me. Your advice is right on target when you suggest “If you are interested in x Paralegal program, you call, ask for a meeting to get the information in person”. It was ridiculous of me to ask members of this forum to share with me their own insightful opinion. Also, once again, you’re correct in believing that “A 4 hour drive to school is ridiculous- and not doable”. I do not know who I think I am to even suggest that for me, personally, driving 1 ½ hours (one way) to a paralegal program is doable, you’re absolutely correct kmm, that’s ridiculous. You’re right kmm. No arguments here. Good job kmm. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
WorkingnineTofive in Toms River, New Jersey said: Hey kmm. No confrontation from me. Your advice is right on target when you suggest “If you are interested in x Paralegal program, you call, ask for a meeting to get the information in person”. It was ridiculous of me to ask members of this forum to share with me their own insightful opinion. Also, once again, you’re correct in believing that “A 4 hour drive to school is ridiculous- and not doable”. I do not know who I think I am to even suggest that for me, personally, driving 1 ½ hours (one way) to a paralegal program is doable, you’re absolutely correct kmm, that’s ridiculous. You’re right kmm. No arguments here. Good job kmm. Do I hear "sarcasm" in your comment? I did in fact call my school, meet with the person in charge face to face before I decided to apply for enrollment. I had a 20 minute drive to school- that was plenty. One gal had a 45 minute drive- that gets hard especially when exams hit. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
WorkingnineTofive in Toms River, New Jersey said: Hey kmm. No confrontation from me. Your advice is right on target when you suggest “If you are interested in x Paralegal program, you call, ask for a meeting to get the information in person”. It was ridiculous of me to ask members of this forum to share with me their own insightful opinion. Also, once again, you’re correct in believing that “A 4 hour drive to school is ridiculous- and not doable”. I do not know who I think I am to even suggest that for me, personally, driving 1 ½ hours (one way) to a paralegal program is doable, you’re absolutely correct kmm, that’s ridiculous. You’re right kmm. No arguments here. Good job kmm. Sounds righ Toms River. THis is how that would work. Study till 10-11pm every night. Have 9am classes with four hour drive. HUM- Have to be on the road at 5am- and you get 6 hours sleep. Yeah- good plan. And do not forget there is the legal memorandum of law and you will have to be in the law library on weekends, as well, to complete that paper. I say, park your car at the school, and sleep in it. |
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Director in Washington, District of Columbia 39 months ago |
Goodness - you're impatient! I was on the phone with the Harris County DA trying to get the answer to your questions. It seems Judge Patricia Lykos, the Harris County DA, has set a goal of putting a paralegal into every courtroom, but has not yet been able to implement the program because of budgetary cuts this year. She hopes to put it into place mid-year. These paralegals will work on subpeonaes, work with victims, put together restitution packages, and make RIP calls (Restitution-Injury-Punishment) to victims to get their input on criminal actions. They will participate in trials to the extent allowed by law. Sounds exciting and progressive. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Director in Washington, District of Columbia said: Goodness - you're impatient! Not bad idea. Only bummer is that pay from the courts is usually low. However, for many woman with husbands, could be a neat job. |
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Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida 39 months ago |
Thank you, Toni, for placing the call. Sounds very much like work paralegals perform already in district attorneys' offices. Also an opportunity for great benefits and job security. But in these times, job security has gone by the boards, even in the courts.
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I think legal research is taught primarily as part of legal writing. Part of legal research is Shepherdizing, meaning you determine if something you've found is still good law. Legal research is another weapon in your arsenal. Remember the Memoranda of Law paper. THe whole campus was freking out on that one. We were all,including 1st year law students, in the library copying case law to support our legal issue. Legal research- another planet. The BLue Book for doing your citiations correctly. Madness. And in the end, it all comes together. |
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Paralegal in Dallas, Texas 39 months ago |
Writing a memo or brief has never been part of my paralegal jobs. I don't know any paralegal doing that type of activity. It's strictly 1st year associate work. It's another situation where school doesn't match reality. One student in my paralegal class only wanted to research and write. The guy was super smart and had worked in the White House even. But, he never found a paralegal job doing what he wanted to do. He needed to go to law school to find a job just doing legal reserch and writing and maybe he did. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: WHAT? How about the West Reporters: Doe v. Green, 531 F.2d 196 (4th Cir. 1976) The objective was to "research" case law by using the Federal Reporters. THen read through cases to find a case on point to support the legal issue. THen "shepardize" to make sure you had the most recent law. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Paralegal in Dallas, Texas said: Writing a memo or brief has never been part of my paralegal jobs. I don't know any paralegal doing that type of activity. It's strictly 1st year associate work. I disagree with you Dallas. Case law, Statutes, etc are the foundation of court decisions on cases. If you did not take that class, you would not even be able to perform the simple task of "cite checking" briefs, a task I performed when I was working for in-house counsel. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Additionally, I did get the opportunity to conduct legal reserch while working for in-house counsel. I researched the standard for damages regarding a specific damage we were seeking to be awarded monetary compensation. Damages are what determines if a case has viability. IS there a case? Prove the damages? No damages, no case. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Another example: Corporations are formed by Statute. Can't find or read the statute, can't form the corporation. By-laws are drafting in according to governance of the state of incorporation's statutes. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Sure it is. You are researching the statute for specific governance of the law. Statutes are law. Legal research is researching the law. Court Rules- Reseach the Civil Procedures book to find out the court's procedure for filing Motions. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
P.S. I strenuously object. (A Few Good Men) |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Well......I don't think looking up statutes only without doing further research is what paralegal school led us to envision OTJ. It is all about the skills obtained in paralegal school to navigate the legal system. Before paralegal school you would not know what to do with the Civil Procedure book, or what a Motion was. Example of job assignemnt: Had to look up the statute in Delaware Code regarding the publishing in newspaper of Judgment matter, and then call client and tell him (in this case) why we cannot do it, by citing the statute with some everyman explanation. I liked doing it. Small task, but reseach, analyze, understand the legalease. I did not get the impression that I would be doing a lot of legal research, by the end of the program. Glad I do not. But I have been called up to research Westaw, check cites in brief, look up statutes.. And without all of the classes- I would not be able to do this. The point of the paralegal program. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
opps- I failed to proof. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Continued.... That is the point. You are going to tell your boss you cannot navigate the CIvil Procedure book and find the answer. Qualification after you look it up is one thing, not knowing how..... |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Continued.... True. It is a bit misleading. Again, as you commnented, the legal research class, plus litigation class, is why you can research the Civil Procedure Rules. |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
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kmm in Wilmington, Delaware 39 months ago |
opps- no proofing. very bad |
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