George Washington Univ. Masters program

Hi all...wondering if anyone has information on the Masters in Paralegal Studies program offered by George Washington University? I am currently completing a paralegal certification, and am considering moving ahead with the Masters degree. Any feedback on the GWU program is appreciated.

I have to say it. You don't need a Master's. Your Bachelor's and paralegal certificate are the only credentials you need.

Read online paralegal bios on lawfirm websites, look at the Times classifieds and job board paralegal postings for typical paralegal education requirements.

As noted by another poster, you do NOT need a Masters degree to enter the Paralegal profession. Most employers will accept an undergraduate degree, certificate, certification, or some combination thereof. Entry level positions are exactly that, positions for those with little to no experience, where one can get training & develop their skill set. Entry level jobs will NOT pay more for a Masters with no experience v. an undergraduate/certificate with no experience. Economically, there's no sense in getting a Masters to break into the field.

The GWU MPS program is expensive, $700/credit hour + registration fees & books (expensive & can only order from GWU's selected vendor)for a total approx. cost of $25,000. (This is the online program)

The online program rolled out just last Fall and there's still a fair amount of confusion and working out the kinks. There's minimal instructor input/feedback on completed assignments, students run amok on the discussion forum assignments, and many of the students in the program do not have prior legal education/work experience. It seems that the courses are 6-week 'crash courses' in fairly sophisticated areas of law, and the students who have no prior legal education/experience are at a distinct disadvantage.

I would strongly encourage prospective students to really think about their future career goals and how this degree and program in particular can help achieve them.

There are other Masters degree programs out there; be sure to google both 'Paralegal' and 'Legal Studies' when searching for MA programs, as some come up under one term and not the other. Be sure to research and compare all the programs so you can be sure you find the one that best suits your needs.

Another good response. Thank you.

I note that you say the GW Master's in Paralegal is not necessary and that you also had comments about the problems they are having. Could you please tell me a little about your qualifications? I ask this because the program is new, and usually a Master's degree in something means a higher degree of education than a certificate, associate's degree or bachelor's. I would appreciate all the knowledge that I could get before making a decision between a certificate program or a graduate degree. The field is also changing in terms of what will be required education for someone who wants to work in the paralegal field. It is the paralegals who are changing it as well. Thanks for your advise.

I stand by my comments, above.

You stand by your comments above, but what are your credentials? I'm trying to get unbiased information. Thank you again.

Eleven years of paralegal experience across four legal specialties; a B.S.B.A. in Accounting; graduation from paralegal school with honors (4.0 GPA), perfect attendance and ABA paralegal certificate.

Lynn Gale in Manhattan Beach, California said: I note that you say the GW Master's in Paralegal is not necessary and that you also had comments about the problems they are having. Could you please tell me a little about your qualifications? I ask this because the program is new, and usually a Master's degree in something means a higher degree of education than a certificate, associate's degree or bachelor's. I would appreciate all the knowledge that I could get before making a decision between a certificate program or a graduate degree. The field is also changing in terms of what will be required education for someone who wants to work in the paralegal field. It is the paralegals who are changing it as well. Thanks for your advise.

I have a BA in Legal Studies and 7 years experience in the field. If you're looking to get started in the profession a BA in any field and a Paralegal Certificate is what you need. Employers will not pay more for a Master's degree for an entry-level position over a BA degree. If you do not have prior legal experience, you will only be hired for entry-level positions, no matter your level of education.

A Master's degree will only be useful as an advanced credential, once you've acquired some experience in the field and want to be more competitive for an advanced position. The MPS degree is very new and relatively unheard of. It makes little to no impression on prospective employers at this time.

MPS Guinea Pig in Milton, Florida: "Employers will not pay more for a Master's degree for an entry-level position over a BA degree...."

No will a Master's get you past the receptionist faster than a Bachelor's and paralegal certificate. An Associate's and paralegal certificate will still get you past the receptionist.

"If you do not have prior legal experience, you will only be hired for entry-level positions, no matter your level of education."

A point some people just don't understand....

"A Master's degree will only be useful as an advanced credential, once you've acquired some experience in the field and want to be more competitive for an advanced position."

I've met only one paralegal who had a Master's. The firm hired her because of her legal experience. Experience makes one competitive.

Just look at ads. Around here, ads are generally specific about experience and are relatively silent about education. Ads will specify paralegal certificates and/or degrees if they say anything at all about education.

MPS Guinea Pig in Milton, Florida: "Employers will not pay more for a Master's degree for an entry-level position over a BA degree...."

Nor will a Master's get you past the receptionist faster than a Bachelor's and paralegal certificate. An Associate's and paralegal certificate will still get you past the receptionist.

"If you do not have prior legal experience, you will only be hired for entry-level positions, no matter your level of education."

A point some people just don't understand....

"A Master's degree will only be useful as an advanced credential, once you've acquired some experience in the field and want to be more competitive for an advanced position."

I've met only one paralegal who had a Master's. The firm hired her because of her legal experience. Experience makes one competitive.

Just look at ads. Around here, ads are generally specific about experience and are relatively silent about education. Ads will specify paralegal certificates and/or degrees if they say anything at all about education.

I really don't know what to do -- I already hold a B.A. in German and would like to enter the paralegal field. My local community college offers paralegal classes and I can complete it in 12-18 months. I can also get on-campus daycare for $20/week. I've done on-line classes before and have not preferred them to regular classes, frankly. Still, I would deal with them. I just spoke with an advisor about the GWU Master's in Paralegal studies and it is going to be way more expensive than the community college, and also will take 30-50% longer for me to complete. However, I realize that it is indeed going forward rather than backwards in getting an associate's degree, and that George Washington University is a fairly prestigious school. She also said that I can teach paralegal studies with this degree, and that 12 hours (or one year) of school will apply to ABA law schools.

Please advise! I would like to make the choice that is best for me and would appreciate any input.

Thank you,
Colleen

You have a Bachelor's degree. All you need to enter law is a paralegal certificate. Honestly.

Your paralegal certificate should preferably be earned in an ABA-approved program. An ABA paralegal certificate is the highest grade paralegal certificate available. With an ABA certificate you will qualify for any legal job that requires a paralegal certificate. You may deprive yourself of opportunities without an ABA certificate.

You should make any effort to obtain an ABA certificate. If you cannot, enroll in your community college's paralegal program. Don't worry about the Associate's degree; your B.A. trumps it and will not be a step backwards at all. You may receive English and humanities credit for your B.A. and take the school's paralegal courses only to graduate.

I agree with you about online courses. Online courses are the new millennium's version of the old-fashioned correspondence courses. I think one learns more, better and faster through discipline of studying for class, attending class and taking notes, and reviewing and recopying notes, or whatever way you may study.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Hello,

Thanks so much for your prompt response. The school I am looking at is not ABA-accredited, but is a community college in the SUNY system. It does offer an internship in its program, however, which I feel would be great to build a network in the community and try to get a foot in the door somewhere. So if it came down to a master's degree from GWU with ABA accreditation and no internship, or an associate's degree without ABA certification but with an internship in my community, which would you choose?

Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate your input.

Colleen

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: You have a Bachelor's degree. All you need to enter law is a paralegal certificate. Honestly.

Your paralegal certificate should preferably be earned in an ABA-approved program. An ABA paralegal certificate is the highest grade paralegal certificate available. With an ABA certificate you will qualify for any legal job that requires a paralegal certificate. You may deprive yourself of opportunities without an ABA certificate.

You should make any effort to obtain an ABA certificate. If you cannot, enroll in your community college's paralegal program. Don't worry about the Associate's degree; your B.A. trumps it and will not be a step backwards at all. You may receive English and humanities credit for your B.A. and take the school's paralegal courses only to graduate.

I agree with you about online courses. Online courses are the new millennium's version of the old-fashioned correspondence courses. I think one learns more, better and faster through discipline of studying for class, attending class and taking notes, and reviewing and recopying notes, or whatever way you may study.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Update: according to the ABA site, GWU doesn't have ABA certification either!

Colleen

Colleen in Brooklyn, New York said: Hello,

Thanks so much for your prompt response. The school I am looking at is not ABA-accredited, but is a community college in the SUNY system. It does offer an internship in its program, however, which I feel would be great to build a network in the community and try to get a foot in the door somewhere. So if it came down to a master's degree from GWU with ABA accreditation and no internship, or an associate's degree without ABA certification but with an internship in my community, which would you choose?

Thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate your input.

Colleen

Colleen in Brooklyn: "The school I am looking at is not ABA-accredited, but is a community college in the SUNY system. It does offer an internship in its program, however, which I feel would be great to build a network in the community and try to get a foot in the door somewhere. So if it came down to a master's degree from GWU...or an associate's degree without ABA certification but with an internship in my community, which would you choose?"

Easy decision. I like how the SUNY program offers an internship and is likely known in NYC. For those reasons alone I'd choose it over G.W.U. You may not get much real hands-on paralegal experience during your internship, but otherwise, you're correct. You'll have the chance to make contacts and, hopefully, obtain an LOR from the attorney(s). As the MasterCard commercial goes, LORs are priceless. Moreover, internships sometime lead to real jobs in the firm.

"Update: according to the ABA site, GWU doesn't have ABA certification either!"

I checked it some time ago. No, it does not. Read the post above your first post from MPS Guinea Pig. The G.W.U. Master's paralegal program is new.

I might whistle a different tune about the G.W.U. program if it were ABA approved. To make that point crystal clear, law schools' paralegal programs must be ABA-approved separate and apart from the schools' ABA law program accreditation. Some people mistakenly believe that a paralegal program offered by an ABA law school is automatically ABA approved. That is simply NOT TRUE.

Colleen:

I find it hard to believe that 12 hours ( which would equal 4 classes or one complete full-time semester) of the GWU program will apply to law school. These courses are not comparable, in my opinion, to any law school course, both in terms of substance or depth. Perhaps what the advisor meant was that you can be given advance standing in the program for 12 credit hours if you already have a paralegal degree or certificate from an ABA approved paralegal program. Also, depending on the institution, the MPS degree will only allow you to teach paralegal studies on a part-time, adjunct professor basis. In Florida, at least, you have to have a PhD or a JD to be a full-time university professor.

Since you're just now entering the paralegal profession, I highly recommend going with the SUNY program. An employer will NOT pay more for an entry-level position with a Master's over someone with an Associate or Bachelor's. GWU tuition just went up to $740 per credit hour, making the program even more expensive.

Most AA or BA paralegal programs include courses in real estate, probate, family law, arbitration/mediation, criminal law, employment law, and other general substantive areas of law which you are more likely to encounter on an everyday basis in a regular practice. These courses are NOT offered in the GWU program. Again, the GWU program is an advanced paralegal degree for those who already have prior paralegal education and/or work experience.

Good Luck!

MPS Guinea Pig in Pensacola, Florida said: Colleen:

I find it hard to believe that 12 hours ( which would equal 4 classes or one complete full-time semester) of the GWU program will apply to law school. These courses are not comparable, in my opinion, to any law school course, both in terms of substance or depth. Perhaps what the advisor meant was that you can be given advance standing in the program for 12 credit hours if you already have a paralegal degree or certificate from an ABA approved paralegal program. Also, depending on the institution, the MPS degree will only allow you to teach paralegal studies on a part-time, adjunct professor basis. In Florida, at least, you have to have a PhD or a JD to be a full-time university professor.

Since you're just now entering the paralegal profession, I highly recommend going with the SUNY program. An employer will NOT pay more for an entry-level position with a Master's over someone with an Associate or Bachelor's. GWU tuition just went up to $740 per credit hour, making the program even more expensive.

Most AA or BA paralegal programs include courses in real estate, probate, family law, arbitration/mediation, criminal law, employment law, and other general substantive areas of law which you are more likely to encounter on an everyday basis in a regular practice. These courses are NOT offered in the GWU program. Again, the GWU program is an advanced paralegal degree for those who already have prior paralegal education and/or work experience.

Good Luck!

Hi MPS,

I realized after I wrote that that I had been confused; of course you are right. Now my problem is that I have already maxed out undergrad student loans and can only go to a graduate program (I am relying on federal student loans out of necessity).

So does this mean I cannot attend the GWU program? The only legal experience I have is having dated a couple of lawyers. haha My B.A. is actually in German.

MPS Guinea Pig in Pensacola, Florida said: Colleen:

I find it hard to believe that 12 hours ( which would equal 4 classes or one complete full-time semester) of the GWU program will apply to law school. These courses are not comparable, in my opinion, to any law school course, both in terms of substance or depth. Perhaps what the advisor meant was that you can be given advance standing in the program for 12 credit hours if you already have a paralegal degree or certificate from an ABA approved paralegal program. Also, depending on the institution, the MPS degree will only allow you to teach paralegal studies on a part-time, adjunct professor basis. In Florida, at least, you have to have a PhD or a JD to be a full-time university professor.

Since you're just now entering the paralegal profession, I highly recommend going with the SUNY program. An employer will NOT pay more for an entry-level position with a Master's over someone with an Associate or Bachelor's. GWU tuition just went up to $740 per credit hour, making the program even more expensive.

Most AA or BA paralegal programs include courses in real estate, probate, family law, arbitration/mediation, criminal law, employment law, and other general substantive areas of law which you are more likely to encounter on an everyday basis in a regular practice. These courses are NOT offered in the GWU program. Again, the GWU program is an advanced paralegal degree for those who already have prior paralegal education and/or work experience.

Good Luck!

(continued from above)... I have a strong academic background and love learning, but absolutely no experience or education in the legal field. What do you recommend? I would love to attend GWU. Are the classes demanding, or pleasantly challenging, or what is your opinion? Thank you very much! -- C

P.S. What about the practicum? Do you get help procuring placement in a local firm or government agency for this portion of the program?

Hi DLP,

Thanks again for your response. I found out I maxed out all undergrad loans and can now only get grad school loans. Will the prestige of a George Washington University degree be worth it if I have no other way to get paralegal education? It also requires a practicum, which I assume they help students line up in their local respective communties, but I could be wrong...

Also, you highly recommend that people not go into the legal field -- do you have any other suggestions? I am not into computer tech stuff, etc. My B.A. is in German, and I don't want to be a teacher. I know the economy is horrible right now. I just need a good job so I can feed my boys. I do freelance editorial consulting and the hourly rate is great, but the jobs are few and far between while I am building clientele.

It sounds like you usually have good advice, so I am all ears if you have any ideas. I spoke with the career counselor at the community college (which is upstate, by the way -- I am moving back there soon). She said that most of the grads there end up becoming legal secretaries. :( At least she was honest!

Thanks,
Colleen

Colleen in Brooklyn, New York: "Will the prestige of a George Washington University degree be worth it if I have no other way to get paralegal education? It also requires a practicum, which I assume they help students line up in their local respective communties, but I could be wrong...."

My two cents' is "no." Unless GWU is absolutely, positively the only way you can go to paralegal school, and absent an ABA program, I think the SUNY program would be the best choice for you. I'd bet anything firms that would hire you in NY State have hired many SUNY grads. You also know you would have an internship.

The GW program is an unknown quantity at the moment. Also, would you move to DC to attend it? You said you like class better than online programs. I support you on that point, but relocation would set you back a few bucks.

I think you should speak to someone at the CC about financial aid. I realize the credit crunch and recession have loosened the underpinnings of the financial aid market. But I find it hard to believe that as a NYC resident you cannot find a way to attend a New York state school.

"Also, you highly recommend that people not go into the legal field -- do you have any other suggestions?"

Yeah. Go into anything but law.

I have no clue about this idea, but it comes to mind. How 'bout the United Nations? You are a German speaker, aren't you? Maybe the U.N. has opportunities. Or the German consulate. For that matter, I thought I've seen where Deutsche Bank has an office in NY. Maybe it can use your linguistic skills.

This idea is probably off the charts for you, Colleen, but I'll float it anyway. More and more U.S. major airlines are flying internationally. As a result, multilingual flight attendants are prized. Maybe flight attendant would suit you. I should point out the money isn't great and you would be away from home a lot.

Hope some of this helped a little. Let me know if I can help further.

I'm not saying you can't attend the GWU program, I'm saying, based on my years of paralegal education and work experience, that this program is not for novices, but those who already have experience. You will not receive the value of the substantive courses I previously mentioned in this program, and that will be to your detriment, IMHO. Also, $30K is a lot of money to invest in a Master's degree when you will only be hired for entry-level positions starting out. The well-paid positions only come with years of experience, no matter what type of degree you have. The economic decision is solely your call to make.

I have no idea what the practicum entails; I'm already a full-time paid paralegal so this would be of no benefit to me anyway. That's something you should ask the GWU advisor. And if the GWU advisor mentions that all graduates of its program are 100% employed in the profession, ask them how many of the graduates were already working as paralegals before they began the program. Saying their students are 100% employed means something very different if most of those who graduated were already employed in the field before beginning the program than if they were all novices whose GWU degree landed them the first job.

Those are good points. Also, the "advisor's" job is a sales job. The "advisor's" job is not to give you advice per se but to sell $30K of paralegal training to you. All vocational school "advisors" operate that way.

I especially appreciate MPS's point about placement rate. Define "placement." Vocational schools, even GWU, can play fast and loose with that definition. Especially a school that is trying to build foot traffic for a new program.

Most people read into the meaning of "placement." I.e. after graduation they understand they will be "placed" into a great paralegal job in a top Manhattan firm. The truth is you could end up coding documents at night for minimum wage and you would be considered as "placed." Not exactly what you envisioned after you spent $30K and got in hock up to your neck for a fancy Master's in Paralegal Studies.

Hi guys,

Thank you for your helpful comments. I can't go to any SUNY school because I am maxed out on undergrad loans. I am also moving back upstate in several weeks, so NYC is out of the question. I brought up some of your concerns to the lady at George Washington and she said that no master's degree programs have ABA certification because they are a graduate degree. I asked about help with careers, and she said that GWU students have access to job listings that are not made public by certain employers. That sounded good to me. She also said that it is for anyone with a B.A. in any field and all the basics are covered (I made sure on that one since I didn't want to feel lost). She said that a master's degree is required in many (all?) government jobs for paralegals as well, which sounds good. There is an independent project, and an on-site practicum, so there will be practical experience similar to an internship. I applied tonight, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that I get in. If not, I will probably do the Boston University on-line certificate and get a regular master's in something else at some point. Thanks for helping me to ask the right questions. I hope this information helps other students considering the master's program at George Washington University.

Colleen

Colleen in Upstate NY in Watertown, New York: "I brought up some of your concerns to the lady at George Washington and she said that no master's degree programs have ABA certification because they are a graduate degree...."

....because a paralegal certificate doesn't accompany the degree.

"I asked about help with careers, and she said that GWU students have access to job listings that are not made public by certain employers. That sounded good to me."

That sounds like sales and headhunter garbage to me. Of course GW has access to "confidential" job listings! What else would you expect this "counselor" to say?

Once again, Colleen, the GW paralegal program is new. The school is trying to build traffic for that program. The school knows it will get its money because you would take out student loans to pay for it. For that reason alone these "counselors" will say anything to get you to buy $30K worth of paralegal training.

"She said that a master's degree is required in many (all?) government jobs for paralegals as well, which sounds good."

Not all government jobs. I would suggest you research that claim. I've seen several government paralegal job listings where the primary qual was experience. In other words, don't expect that government will hire you directly out of GW paralegal school.

"I applied tonight, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that I get in. If not, I will probably do the Boston University on-line certificate and get a regular master's in something else at some point."

Once again, a Master's won't give you any more of a leg up than your Bachelor's and a paralegal certificate will. Accordingly, IMO you would be better served by the B.U. paralegal certificate. It probably would be cheaper, too.

I reiterate my advice that you research local job ads, internet job postings and firm websites for authentic paralegal requirements in your locale. Good luck, and caveat emptor.

Hi DLP,

Thanks for your prompt response. My plan is to look for entry-level paralegal work while attending school on-line. I can't afford to move to DC just yet, no...but checking out the job boards there on Craigslist, it looks like they have new posting every day, unlike where I am from. While I am upstate I will take any legal job I can get -- it may mean moving to Albany. We will see. And maybe I will have second thoughts and get scared about the price tag -- could happen. Right now it is at $26,000 and some change. I could get a SUNY master's degree in liberal arts or something and a Boston University paralegal certificate for much less money. I will first have to see if I get accepted, and then take it from there. I have to admit that I hope that George Washington University means something to employers -- if it doesn't, there isn't much point, I guess. You're paying for the name...that is not to say that the education wouldn't be good -- GWU supposedly has one of the best law schools in the country, so the paralegal program associated with it can't be bad. I have some time to think about it. I am thinking of applying to a couple of SUNY master's programs as back-ups in case I chicken out at the price tag.

Colleen

Colleen in Upstate NY in Watertown, New York: "I will first have to see if I get accepted [at GW], and then take it from there."

Oh, I have a sneaking suspicion you will be accepted, Colleen.

"I have to admit that I hope that George Washington University means something to employers -- if it doesn't, there isn't much point, I guess. You're paying for the name...that is not to say that the education wouldn't be good -- GWU supposedly has one of the best law schools in the country, so the paralegal program associated with it can't be bad."

You would be paying for a name. You would be riding on George's coattails. Once again, an ABA-accredited law school J.D. program doesn't grandfather that school's paralegal program. The two programs are separate and apart.

"I am thinking of applying to a couple of SUNY master's programs as back-ups in case I chicken out at the price tag."

I would only say to get a Master's because you want to and not because you think you must to be competitive. A Master's won't get you past a law office receptionist any faster than your Bachelor's and paralegal certificate, and it won't jack up your starting pay.

Hi DLP,

Well, I may have just wasted $60, but I am starting to get frightened by all of these comments I keep reading everywhere on this forum. Rarely do I see anything about positive experiences! I may just get a master's degree in something I love (i.e., history or foreign languages) and become a secretary or something. I have to admit that I am also a little afraid of getting a master's degree in something I can only use for one profession. I guess I have some time to think about it. Thanks for your comments.

Colleen

Colleen in Upstate NY in Watertown, New York: "I am starting to get frightened by all of these comments I keep reading everywhere on this forum. Rarely do I see anything about positive experiences!"

At least the comments have provoked your thought processes and caused you to exercise due diligence in researching George's paralegal program and, I hope, the legal profession.

"I may just get a master's degree in something I love (i.e., history or foreign languages)...."

Why not German? You're most of the way there, aren't you? I reiterate my U.N. and Deutsche Bank suggestions if you don't want to teach.

BTW my toughest English teacher in high school also taught German. I had her for German as well. I didn't like her for German and she probably didn't like me. She was a decent English teacher and I learned a lot from her in that class.

"I have to admit that I am also a little afraid of getting a master's degree in something I can only use for one profession...."

How 'bout an M.B.A.?

Once again, good luck with whatever you decide.

I don't have any connections and a Master's degree in English Lit, and EVEN I got a job as a paralegal at a firm. I honestly think GW just created this program as another cash cow...what you really need is experience, which you can get with legal temp agencies and as a legal assistant. They WILL hire you without the certification and a silly master's degree. Seriously, NO ONE needs a master's degree in paralegal studies. Don't waste your money!

JessicaLee said: I don't have any connections and a Master's degree in English Lit, and EVEN I got a job as a paralegal at a firm. I honestly think GW just created this program as another cash cow...what you really need is experience, which you can get with legal temp agencies and as a legal assistant. They WILL hire you without the certification and a silly master's degree. Seriously, NO ONE needs a master's degree in paralegal studies. Don't waste your money!

Absolutely. I agree 100 percent. Very good post. Thank you.

I maintain a paralegal certificate is still important because the course at least introduces you to law and provides a passport, as it were, to get past the receptionist. An ABA certificate is better. A four-year degree and a paralegal certificate are ample qualifications to be given a chance. Anything else is superfluous.

Once again, one need only review ads and online paralegal bios to determine authentic quals for a particular area.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Absolutely. I agree 100 percent. Very good post. Thank you. I maintain a paralegal certificate is still important because the course at least introduces you to law and provides a passport, as it were, to get past the receptionist. An ABA certificate is better. A four-year degree and a paralegal certificate are ample qualifications to be given a chance. Anything else is superfluous.

Once again, one need only review ads and online paralegal bios to determine authentic quals for a particular area.

How can you maintain that opinion when you cannot get a job? Have you worked in all 50 states? What are you basing your blanket statement on? MY 915 (qualifies to sit for NALA's CP exam) hour paralegal diploma is fully accredited by Middle States. Middle States is the same accrediting institution that accredits Princeton, Columbia, NYU,Pace,and,many other educational institutions on the East Coast. Middle States is given its authority to accredit from the U.S. Department of Education which,is the same agency that gives the ABA authority to accredit law schools.

Who said I cannot get a job? You assume facts. Whatever. It's a straw man for the debate. Those who resort to such "arguments" use them because they cannot back up their positions with facts. Please use facts if you're going to argue an issue. You'll be more credible.

Further,
Phoenix, your academic credentials are laudable, but you beg the question and miss the point. The ABA can accredit a law school, but said law school's paralegal program isn't automatically grandfathered in. The paralegal program must receive separate ABA approval.

That is fact and you know it is, Phoenix. Or maybe you didn't until now.

I stand by my remarks about reviewing ads and paralegal bios to determine authentic quals for a particular locale.

F-Bomb in Los Angeles, California said: Displaced Legal Professional doesn't work or do anything productive. He roams around this forum dispensing advice to anyone who will listen while bashing any opinions that are not pre-approved.

As you can see, he likes to pick apart everyone's posts line by line. Oh and lookout if someone should not agree with Displaced: he will start correcting your grammar or spelling.

It's actually quite entertaining . . .

He has made so correction on my comment. He made so many one day that I had to remind him that he had made several mistakes of his own.
:)

"F" has a man-crush on me. He also doesn't have a life. Otherwise, he wouldn't be following me around this board like a puppy dog.

How 'bout addressing the paralegal accreditation issue, Phoenix, instead of addressing me personally? BTW, thanks for pointing out the errors in my posts. I appreciate it, buddy!

"Wow, you got me again(,) Displaced. Boy, telling someone that they don't have a life is a real low blow. Is that the best you can come up with?

"I do feel special(,) though. You said before that you would not respond to me anymore. I guess your feelings for me have changed . . ."

Learn how to use commas, please.

I wasn't addressing you directly. But I was talking about you - just as you have talked bout me in your inimitable gutless fashion.

That's it for you.

"Wow, you got me again(,) Displaced. Boy, telling someone that they don't have a life is a real low blow. Is that the best you can come up with?

"I do feel special(,) though. You said before that you would not respond to me anymore. I guess your feelings for me have changed . . ."

Learn how to use commas, please.

I wasn't addressing you directly. But I was talking about you - just as you have talked about me in your inimitable gutless fashion.

That's it for you, puppy dog.

Overall, what do/did you think of the MPS online program? Would you do it again? Would you recommend it to a friend? I have four years experience working as an IP paralegal and I'm thinking of applying for advanced standing once I pass the CLA exam this December. I'm interested in paralegal management as an end goal. Thanks for any advice. I'm looking at several options, this program among them.

My two cents would be that with your experience and CLA credential you'll have everything you need for your legal education.

Get an MBA if management is your goal.

Kristine,

If Paralegal Management is your end goal, you may want to look into GWU's Law Firm Management program instead. Although the program recruiters will tell you that the MPS can help you get a management position, that is solely from the position that many firms want a graduate degree to fill a management slot. The MPS program does not offer any courses that will help you with paralegal or law firm management. I think the Law Firm Management program is a 9 month Certificate program.

Great idea, Kristine, if you don't want to pursue an MBA.

u guys dont help at all

"She said that a master's degree is required in many (all?) government jobs for paralegals as well, which sounds good."

A Master's degree is a required prerequisite for entry-level paralegals at the GS-09 level. If you are looking at entering the GS system (approx $45K/yr) and not having to work your way up the slow way, a Master's degree will be beneficial to you.

"I applied tonight, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that I get in. If not, I will probably do the Boston University on-line certificate and get a regular master's in something else at some point."

Congratulations on applying. Good luck. Per the Bureau of Labor and Statistsics, only 8% of paralegals have a Master's degree. Despite the fact that experience is likely the number one factor in hiring on a paralegal, a Master's degree is a great accomplishment, and the GWU program can be completed online. Why not have another degree under your belt? Completing such a program will show that you have the drive to complete a gret undertaking and want to continue your education.

ABC in Apo said: Per the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, only 8% of paralegals have a Master's degree.

That's a pretty small percentage of paralegals. That would prove a Master's degree is unnecessary to be hired for and to function as a paralegal.

ABC in Apo said: **Despite the fact that experience is likely the number one factor in hiring on a paralegal**, a Master's degree is a great accomplishment, and the GWU program can be completed online. Why not have another degree under your belt? Completing such a program will show that you have the drive to complete a great undertaking and want to continue your education. (emphasis added)

You just wrote that experience is likely the number one factor in hiring a paralegal. The GWU Director has stated her program costs $22K+. Why spend that kind of money when it's experience that will get you through the door? Why spend that kind of money when another degree is unnecessary to get hired? After all, $22K isn't exactly chump change for most people. Moreover, $22K+ won't buy you much more learning than you've already gained through experience and/or a less expensive paralegal certificate program.

Just look at job ads and postings and paralegal bios to determine authentic paralegal educational requirements. You'll see Bachelor's degrees and/or paralegal certificates as required or preferred credentials. (A poster pointed out one paralegal ad, by AIG,that required a Master's.)

Don't believe everything you hear from anyone whose primary purpose is to push expensive training for a largely unrecognized credential and to build a program on your nickel. A Bachelor's degree is ample education to be a paralegal. A Master's won't earn you more money, particularly if you are entry level. Experience earns you the money. A Master's is vocational degree overkill.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: That's a pretty small percentage of paralegals. That would prove a Master's degree is unnecessary to be hired for and to function as a paralegal... The GWU Director has stated her program costs $22K+. Why spend that kind of money when it's experience that will get you through the door? Why spend that kind of money when another degree is unnecessary to get hired?

WOW. $22K is a hellaofa lot of money for a Masters degree for someone who wants to become a paralegal.

My opinion is that, considering the income potential for paralegals, it is SO NOT WORTH it to put that time and money into education if your ambition is to become a paralegal. That's $22K PLUS the amount you spent on a BA, when all you need is a certificate. I paid $3K for my paralegal certificate from UCLA.

I never worked as a paralegal. I started in the industry as a word processor then legal secretary. I grew to thoroughly hate working for attys; so I left the industry to return to school full time so that I could do something completely unrelated to law.

One thing I do know for sure about legal secretaries: Having a bachelors degree doesn't command a higher salary. Firms are looking for the experienced secretary. A former coworker with 20 years' experience and a member of a legal secretary association in OC and LA is certified in certain areas of law thru the association. And she told me that specialized certification does NOT get her any more money. I wondered why she put the effort into studying and paying for testing if it didn't make a difference salary wise, but I didn't ask.

A magazine a read recently, I think it was World News, stated that the average salaries for MBA's fresh out of grad school (UC Irvine and UC Davis) were mid $70's in 2005 - starting pay and then consider where they will be in 10 or 20 years. In a case like that, $22K is worth it.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: That's a pretty small percentage of paralegals. That would prove a Master's degree is unnecessary to be hired for and to function as a paralegal. You just wrote that experience is likely the number one factor in hiring a paralegal. The GWU Director has stated her program costs $22K+. Why spend that kind of money when it's experience that will get you through the door? Why spend that kind of money when another degree is unnecessary to get hired? QUOTE]

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: That's a pretty small percentage of paralegals. That would prove a Master's degree is unnecessary to be hired for and to function as a paralegal. You just wrote that experience is likely the number one factor in hiring a paralegal. The GWU Director has stated her program costs $22K+. Why spend that kind of money when it's experience that will get you through the door? Why spend that kind of money when another degree is unnecessary to get hired?...

Also, if a paralegal is making $50-$60K, he/she is pretty much capped out in salary. The MBA grad is just starting at $70+. That's what makes it worth it to put in extra time and money into education.

And the former coworker I mentioned above who told me extra certifications from the secretary association didn't get her a higher salary - she also has her bachelor's degree from the Univ. of Minnesota (graduated late 70's) in addition to her certifications. The only difference between her salary and mine was our experience. She had 15 years on me, and even that wasn't a big difference.

dh in Northern CA, California said: I paid $3K for my paralegal certificate from UCLA.

My ABA certificate from a free-standing paralegal school cost something like $7.5K in 1994. The program undoubtedly costs more since I attended it fourteen years ago, but I seriously doubt it costs any $22K+.

Something like a Master's in Public Administration would be valuable to a paralegal who wants to work in government. An M.B.A. would be an excellent credential for law firm administration. To that end, I understand that GWU offers a certificate in firm administration. But, to me, $22K+ seems rather steep for a non-ABA-approved online Master's from an obscure and unknown program that offers virtually no advantages over a normal ABA paralegal program. I understand the GWU MPS is accredited.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: My ABA certificate from a free-standing paralegal school cost something like $7.5K in 1994. The program undoubtedly costs more since I attended it fourteen years ago, but I seriously doubt it costs any $22K+...
.

Hi DLP - I've always heard "thru the grapevine," that employers don't give any weight to those online programs. Furthermore, I have two acquaintenances who have Masters degrees from the U of Phoenix, and they both said it got them nowhere. Apparently, employers like to see degrees from traditional universities??

In '05 when I was networking and researching like crazy, trying to find my way out of the legal industry, I chatted online with midlife career changers thru some Monster.com forum. I exchanged posts with an IT manager in Boston who said he will not consider any person who received his degree online. He said that individuals who show up to class and interact with other students, "bouncing ideas off each other" are "more well rounded individuals." He also said that anyone can log onto a computer and take an online class. I don't remember exactly how he put it, but my impression was that he felt online degrees was a way of taking the easy way out of getting a bachelors degree.

Granted, this is an IT guy, but I always wondered whether a lot of managers felt that way? Another program that seems popular yet I've heard bad things about it is the U of Phoenix.

And onother thing I noticed about those online degrees - they're EXPENSIVE! I think outrageous considering they aren't paying a professor to show up and teach and grade papers.

You probably remember, dh, that I was a professional pilot and flight instructor before I joined the legal profession. Along with instructing in airplanes, I instructed students in small groups, in ground trainers and, finally, in the classroom. I know a little about how students learn.

Aside from having an aviation background, to become a flight instructor one must study and pass a written exam on fundamentals of instructing. The FAA teaches that learning is received through all senses and learning occurs most rapidly when information is received through multiple senses.

The FAA teaches that seventy-five percent of all learning is acquired through sight and thirteen percent of all learning is acquired through hearing. One uses sight in online learning. But online learning may well be a diminished learning experience because one really doesn't use hearing.

Although someone on these fora said her online paralegal school offers a library of pre-recorded lectures 24/7, I think her argument is flawed. The lecture must tie in to the course syllabus. Not everyone's computer has a sound card. You cannot ask questions of a canned lecture.

Some would argue that one can e-mail the lecturer with questions or phone the lecturer, but there would be little or no immediate feedback. Immediate feedback is important when learning. Bouncing ideas off the lecturer and classmates is especially important to fostering a great learning experience. Finally, preparing and attending class imposes discipline that fosters faster and better learning which, I think, 24/7 online classes do not foster.

The GWU program's director has said the best attorneys and legal minds in D.C. teach her program. That's great - but explain the benefit if one cannot experience their erudition in person. The GWU program director has said one can attend the program on campus (and probably for more money).

Continued, below....