George Washington Univ. Masters program

Sorry, but I sincerely doubt lawyers are going to hire a non-lawyer to manage the firm. And a law firm management degree is totally different fron an MBA. It does not carry the same weight or prestige as the MBA.

Actually, every law firm manager I know is a non-lawyer. The Firm Manager is not the same as the Firm President, which is one of the shareholders. The Firm Managers I know run the gamut of degrees from accounting, business administration, and HR, either bachelors or masters level. The Law Firm Management MPS is relatively new, but maybe GWU has identified a niche market need that needs to be met.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Hope the oil isn't doing too much violence to your beaches, Jane.

Unfortunately, it started washing ashore here yesterday. :(

I'm a paralegal employed in CA.
I agree that the GWU masters program is worthless. Only a few states have formal requirements to use the title paralegal and the gold standard in all states is a paralegal certificate from an ABA approved school. Some employers require a 4 yr degree as well. Many older paralegals acquired the title thru work experience before the requirements were established, which is accepted by many employers.
More importantly, before starting the program you need to be sure you like the work. Without previous experience in the field, any position will be entry level and very soon you will have to decide what area of law you want to specialize in. Then there's working for a law firm or in-house, very different work environments.
Because paralegal courses are so specialized, you really need to be sure it's the right field before starting the program.

About a dozen (maybe more) states actually define "paralegal" and prohibit the use of the title by anyone offering services directly to the public. I know in Florida, the Florida Bar will pursue a UPL complaint against any individual using the title "paralegal" who does not work under the direct supervision of a licensed attorney.

I agree with test-driving the profession in an entry-level position such as legal secretary; however, I don't think anyone needs to know which areas of law they want to go into before they begin their formal paralegal education. Most paralegal programs require students take classes in business/agency law, contracts, real estate, probate/estate planning, torts/litigation, civil procedure, family, and criminal. Specialization comes later with years of experience and on the job training in the subtle nuances of a particular area of law. Paralegal programs are designed to give a conceptual overview of the basic terminology and legal theories students will encounter in an area of law. They are not designed to make students a specialist in any one area of law.

I've read quite a few of these comments and find it a bit disturbing that one would discourage another from pursuing any form of education. The education industry in a whole is a "cash cow"...from tuition, to boarding, to books...but its how its sustained.

Any post high school education will be expensive. We live in a world that is ruled by status and money. We live in it, we abide by it. Unfortunately the expense is what we try to cut out, however, to climb the ladder requires some form of advanced standing in education. So seeking a degree that can help you get further up the corporate ladder, means spending money.

I hold a BA degree in psychology, and have 15 years experience as a paralegal...note that i DO NOT HAVE A PARALEGAL CERTIFICATE, NOR A DEGREE IN ANY LEGAL STUDIES. I was at the right place, at the right time, and was offered a job in the legal field that allowed me to grow and garner an experience that looks SPECTACULAR on paper. But not enough for being hired by a new employer. Due to recent downsizing, I was laid off....now applying for jobs has left me backed in to a corner because firms are NOT taking heed of my experience. But due to not holding that certificate or degree, I find myself being rejected for positions I am qualified for. My experience does not suffice.

Employers want to know that you have dedicated yourself to a 'career', not a job. Being in the legal field is my career goal. So furthering my education ...capped salary or not...I am going the extra mile...this is MY opinion. To each his own.

Sure you can be hired without the degree, and or the certificate, but unless you intend to remain in the same position for the rest of your life, without an unexpected lay-off, I congratulate you. If you happen to find a cheaper program, I say go for it. If you find that GWU offers a better academic program, go for it. BUT NEVER let anyone sway you from furthering your studies.

I would tend to doubt that the lack of a certificate is the reason you're not getting a job. With all of that experience, a certificate is basically moot.

I can only guess that you're not getting another paralegal job because you have SO MUCH experience that employers would fear having to pay you for it and also because of the economy and generally bad state of the legal field. Plus, not having a job is not conducive to getting another job, and you may have a gap on your resume. I am in the exact same boat as you are, with the only difference being that I have a certificate and a bit less experience.

I hope you have a little luck hooking something up at some point.

I don't think it's disturbing at all to discourage a person from pursuing certain types of education. They are asking for an opinion and you are giving it to them. What would be disturbing, at least to me, is if a person continually lied about how great and useful obtaining their education was when in reality it was not worth the time or expense. It's one thing to consider a paralegal certificate if you already have fifteen years of experience. It's entirely another if you have no experience. Getting your foot in the door into any kind of decent paying job as a newbie in this economy is becoming increasingly difficult.

MarissaH8637 in Clinton Township, Michigan said: I don't think it's disturbing at all to discourage a person from pursuing certain types of education. They are asking for an opinion and you are giving it to them. What would be disturbing, at least to me, is if a person continually lied about how great and useful obtaining their education was when in reality it was not worth the time or expense. It's one thing to consider a paralegal certificate if you already have fifteen years of experience. It's entirely another if you have no experience. Getting your foot in the door into any kind of decent paying job as a newbie in this economy is becoming increasingly difficult.

I thoroughly agree. Look at the flood of law school graduates who remain unemployed and are over 100K in nondischargeable debt. Some of them must surely wish someone had told them to think long and hard before encumbering themselves with that much debt. Was the further education worth it for them? As "Get the Job Done" pointed out in an earlier post, the education industry is a "cash cow." Therefore, as education industry consumers and paralegals of generally modest means, it makes sense to be extremely selective and cautious about the type of education pursued and the amount of student loan debt involved.

Well said! I have spent 10s of thousands on training (computer certifications CCNA, MSCD, etc. etc) they all advertise high demand job placement but none of the certifications themselves get you the jobs. It is who you know and what actual experience you have. Job experience is more important than any training in furthering your career. I thought of this GWU's MS Paralegal as an option too but folks in the industry here told me "Don't waste the time or money". I love this most valuable forum!

I just wanted to say the preceding five posts rock, you are all spot on.

Think about it, long before paralegal programs became the rage, paralegals were trained in-house and doing much of the same work that is being done today, except they didn't have the benefit of word processors, software and the internet. So, indeed, education is a "cash cow" and we're all being oversold a bill of goods.

If you have money, hold on to it and invest in things that are useful and that you really need, as more and more people join the ranks of the unemployed. Investing in education is about the nuttiest thing anyone could do right now.

Lawyer and paralegal skills will be near useless in the coming years, so best to trade in those law books for practical books on crafts, building and simple living.

BG, I agree with much of your post - and I found this particular statement intriguing: "Lawyer and paralegal skills will be near useless in the coming years, so best to trade in those law books for practical books on crafts, building and simple living."

I actually totally agree with that statement, but I'm curious as to why you believe this. Did you ever read "World Made By Hand" by James Howard Kunstler? For those of you that haven't read Kunstler's novel, it is a story of the potential future about some upstate New Yorkers trying to survive after fossil fuels run out. All white collar skills are pretty useless in that future world - for example, the main character is a software executive but ekes out a living as a carpenter.

I'm looking at going to school for a Bachelors in Legal Studies. Is it going to be worth my time to get the bachelors over an associates?

I wouldn't recommend that anyone enroll in any paralegal programs at the moment. There just aren't any jobs out there in the legal field. I would believe what you read here rather than what any school tells you about jobs. The legal job market has been decimated over the last five years.

I completely disagree with Parafreegal and many of the other Negative Nellies on this board.

The U.S. Labor Department projects much faster than average growth for the paralegal field. It estimates a 28% increase in the number of paralegal jobs between 2008 and 2018. Law firms need to cut costs. Paralegals are 1/3 to have 1/2 the cost of an attorney. The math makes sense. As with most jobs, the demand for paralegals with experience will be greater but an internship or connection will still get you in the door.

Here's another recent statistic: Forbes magazine listed the average unemployment rate for paralegals as only 3.1% over the past three years. Forbes also lists the average income as $47,000 a year. Not bad for a recession.

In my experience on the west coast, paralegals have weathered the economic storm very well. Many legal specialties are hiring right now. I can't speak for the other areas of the country but it's not gloom and doom here.

This thread generally has a negative view of paralegal education, especially advanced paralegal education. Do your homework and don't let anyone discourage you from pursuing your goals.

As far as the level of education you need, look at job postings for paralegal opportunities in your area. Most jobs in my area require a BA and a paralegal certificate. Go to an ABA-approved school and work your connections or get an internship. I didn't know any lawyers when I started in this field. I started as an intern in a solo practitioner's office working in family law. There are opportunities for smart, driven people. Good luck!

SOURCES:

Bureau of Labor Statistics: www.bls.gov/oco/ocos114.htm

Forbes Magazine: www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2011/09/20/the-most-underrated-jobs/

Keep in mind that a paralegal is a support position contingent on lawyers. Not only have lawyers been hit hard by unemployment, but many law firms have folded or else downscaled significantly, resulting in a decreased demand for paralegals to support lawyer positions, which no longer exist.

Many businesses have also dowwnscaled or otherwise filed for bankruptcy, which has further impacted the law firms who derive their income from those businesses.

Colleges and universities have also contributed to the unemployment factor, since they're desperate for students to shell out money for their paralegal programs, so they don't find themselves also of a job!

The paralegal profession will be one of the worse fields to be in unless you work for yourself, which many paralegals and document preparers are already doing in California and Arizona. Other viable areas will in preparing bankruptcy petitions, since there is no shortage of work in that area.

Paralegals should unite to lobby their state representatives, so they can provide routine legal services to the public, which would make them less dependent on lawyers for a living.

"The U.S. Labor Department projects much faster than average growth for the paralegal field. It estimates a 28% increase in the number of paralegal jobs between 2008 and 2018."

I've heard the same thing in 1997, however the US Department of Labor does not always have it right. As others have said, Paralegal is a support role. It's not like a nurse which nurses can work for agencies to care for people without having to report directly to a doctor. Being a paralegal is very different. You have to report and work under an attorney. You can proceed to create and file documents independently. We are not licensed professionals like our peers in Canada. The US legal system pretty much gives full power to the attorneys. This is not being a "negative nellie", this is fact. If law firms are not hiring and companies are not expanding its legal departments, how are paralegals going to find work? In the US we cannot hang a shingle, or handle lower court matters independently. Even becoming "certified" by a paralegal organization such as NALA or NFPA, means very little; attorneys are the only legal professionals that are licensed to practice law and are in the capacity to work independently.

While I have no regrets becoming a paralegal, I have to admit since 2008, it has been a real challenge finding some stability in this field. The competition for employment is stiff and many employers have become quite unreasonable with their demands. All some of us are saying is be careful with taking out student loans, that's all. The field is not as wide open as most school administrators and professors would lead students to believe.

You cannot proceed to create and file documents independently without prior approval of a licensed, admitted attorney.

[Corrected]

I've seen the stats IP cited for years.

You can go ahead and believe the stats if you want. Empirical evidence shows completely different results.

Stats can be used to sell anything. And the stats cited by IP have been used by schools for close to two decades to sell the paralegal profession to prospective students.

They can predict all they want. The reality doesn't match up.

Call us negative nellies all you want. We're realistic. And it's better than being a BS monger.

Cheers.

tfm - in California and Arizona many of the legal documents assistants (LDAs) and legal document preparers (LPPs) are also credentialed paralegals, who deliver services directly to the public.

Under California BPC 6450(a) paralegals can also represent clients before federal and state administrative hearings:

"[a]nd representing clients before a state or federal administrative agency if that representation is permitted by statute, court rule, or administrative rule or regulation."

In short, paralegals don't always have to work under the supervision of an attorney and many of them have developed practices directed to state and federal agencies.

Pursuant to the Administrative Procedures Act, 5 U.S.C. § 555(b), it provides for federal government agencies to permit nonlawyers to accompany, represent, and advise persons required to appear before them. There are many opportunities for paralegals to work as a bankruptcy petition preparers, trademark agents, tax agents, social security disability agents, trademarks, etc. Other potential areas for employment are arbitration and mediation.

Lawyers are always looking for loopholes and operating in grey areas of the law and paralegals should be doing the same; rather than hinging a career around another career, which happens to be on the decline.

Self-empowerment and looking for areas outside the box will go a long way in getting paralegals on the employment track.

Just some food for thought.

BG in Carlsbad, California said: tfm - in California and Arizona many of the legal documents assistants (LDAs) and legal document preparers (LPPs) are also credentialed paralegals, who deliver services directly to the public.

Thank you for the heads up BG! I knew CA paralegals are licensed and could handle some things independently, but I was not aware that their services could also be available to the public. However it is fair to say that most of the state bar associations and state law requires the paralegal to work under an attorney. Where I live (NY), the attorneys pretty much have everything on lockdown, which is unfortunate.

I know there was some movement in FL in which the title "paralegal" could not be used by anyone who didn't study law in some capacity (either paralegal certificate, or law school) and did not pass state certification. The way the current system is set up, too many people are graduating from law school deeply in debt, with absolutly no idea how unglamorous law is (LOL!). I think if states would follow CA, AZ, and FL's lead in requiring education and licensing, it would actually be a beneficial to the legal profession, as well as to the public. It would also allow people to at least test drive the profession first, before running off to law school thinking that's the thing to do.

Unfortunately this only applies to the state of California. "Food for thought" - only if you want to move to CA.

Every profession has been hit hard by this recession. Going to School for anything is not a guarantee of getting a job. There are unemployed engineers, medical professionals (radiology, ultrasound, CNA's etc.), bartenders, construction workers, etc. etc.

deb in Broomfield, Colorado said: Unfortunately this only applies to the state of California. "Food for thought" - only if you want to move to CA.
[QUOTE]

Perhaps insofar as document preparation goes. However, representing clients before federal agencies should apply to pretty much all states, since it falls under federal law.

See: Sperry v. Florida, 373 U.S. 379, 385 (1963) (unlicensed lawyers may practice law pursuant to preemptive federal legislation despite the fact that they are violating state proscriptions on unauthorized practice).

Originally, many of the UPL laws were passed to address non-lawyers with zero training in law. However, the situation today is quite different in that we have a HUGE workforce of educated and credentialed paralegals.

deb in Broomfield, Colorado said: Every profession has been hit hard by this recession. Going to School for anything is not a guarantee of getting a job. There are unemployed engineers, medical professionals (radiology, ultrasound, CNA's etc.), bartenders, construction workers, etc. etc.

Deb, I could not have said this better myself. In my neighborhood, I know two teachers who were downsized and a CPA who also lost his job. If downsizing wasn't bad enough, so many employers are making demands on employees in taking pay freezes, overtime, and even working three to four different jobs.

As I mentioned in another thread (similar topic), people need to take into consideration how they will pay for their student loan. Tuition costs have skyrocketed during the last decade. Higher education unfortunately became big business in the US. I wouldn't mind so much if schools did not take advantage of students, but they do; not only do some schools twist facts regarding employment stats, but charging the student an arm and leg to boot. I know so many who ran off to take courses in medical coding only to find themselves stuck with a bill, and little opportunity for placement. Even if someone receives an extension to pay off the student loan, that certainly does not stop interest from accruing.