Paralegal ambling toward vestibule of Hell...

I accomplished my dream, I'm a paralegal...now what? I've read many comments--especially Displaced Paralegal's; despite the horror stories, I still want to pursue my dream. Was there ever a time when anyone was happy with their work? Did anyone ever feel a sense of fulfillment?

I'm a great writer. I got to do a lot of drafting of motions for summary judgment, etc. You will feel really special when you spent a lot of time and mental energy doing a job few others can do. But don't expect any whoopy-do from anybody.

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: I'm a great writer. I got to do a lot of drafting of motions for summary judgment, etc. You will feel really special when you spent a lot of time and mental energy doing a job few others can do. But don't expect any whoopy-do from anybody.

Really!? Mary what you've said, is exactly what I would love to learn. I'm proud of my profession and I want to be the best paralegal I can be, but after reading the horror stories I'm starting to reconsider.

I only got to do writing because of two attorneys I worked for. I was an exception. Very few attorneys will allow a paralegal or legal assistant/secretary to do any indepth writing because: (1) the time it takes to review it; and (2) an attorney doesn't want to be "upstaged" by a staff member who can write better than he can.

Those attorneys are the "punks." At Ruden I had to work for a new associate. His writing was poor (and I mean poor). I was required to edit and polish his writing - which he resented. Anything he did that went out the door and it was poor quality, I had to explain why I let it go out. He harassed me for over a year. I was eventually terminated.

I do know happy paralegals. I like my current job and liked my 1st job - the two in the middle - no bueno. So much depends on your attorneys and the culture of the place where you work. Happy paralegals don't leave their good jobs, so it's hard to get those types of jobs. The bad jobs turn over and turn over so it's easy to find yourself in a crummy job working for jerks.

Well, that's true for any job.

.... I looked forward to exercising them as a paralegal.

In my Legal Research and Writing class in paralegal school I drafted my memo of law. I was taking to and enjoying legal research. Never got to do it my day jobs. Paralegal schools misrepresent legal research as an integral part of a paralegal's job description....

Displaced, I was under the same impression! I worked for an attorney--what an a-hole. In addition to being the sole staff member, I also did his laundry,paid his cellphone bill, and auto insurance. Treated me like crap...never mind he's my brother--but that's another story; after reading the horror stories, I'm convinced I still had it better than most.

Sorry, the first three lines where quoted from Displaced response. I accidently deleted the quoted part of the text.

I worked for a sole practitioner (PI) years ago. He owned the whole block of connected stores. Us, then the convenience store, then the laundromat. I didn't have a washer and dryer. He wasn't there all the time. I would bring my laundry and do it there. Do work, walk over to laundrymat, put in clothes, come back and do work, etc. He complained about it several times. But it was practical.

Well, in all fairness, he is my brother. When I mean "paid", it was with my own money. I paid for a lot of his stuff while he was in lawschool.

I really do want to be a paralegal. I was so focused on doing the very best that I could, that I didn't realize the abuse was so rampant, the job prospects bleak, and that outsourcing legal work was on the upswing. I really thought I was "safe" from losing my job to outsourcing. I've read your story, Displaced and it truly breaks my heart. While I was in school there where very attractive younger women (already working in the industry). Seems you have to really attractive in order to land a break. How can an industry just throw away its veteran workers, these invaluable employees have fought in the trenches (and have the battle scars to prove it), a wealth of experience in the field and the benefit of "hindsight" from previous cases. Am I scared to enter the battlefield? You bet. Do I want to paralegal? With all my heart. Perhaps, now is not the time to listen to one's heart, but listen to others.

Worker, tell your brother to pay for your education. Tell him you want to go to court reporting school. Tell him your writer will cost $3,000.

Don't overdramatize it too much, WorkerBee. Veteran workers in many professions are let go because they get too expensive or they refuse to keep up with technology. Veteran workers become very inflexible to change. Also, more and more attorneys need their paralegals to speak Spanish, too. Hot women in every industry have had advantages over others since the beginning of time.

True, legal researching and drafting from scratch are just not done that much by paralegals. I know of one who does research all day and none who draft memos. Paralegal schools just miss the boat on what should be taught. Lawyers will tell you they didn't learn anything practical in law school either.

My crimial law teacher said, "You will never work in this area, so don't bother taking notes." My civil litigation teacher only knew how to work from the plaintiff side and it's all she taught and I have never worked on the plaintiff side - always the defense, so that class wasn't helpful to me. We spent TWO classes on legal research and writing where I was reprimanded in front of the class by the teacher for pulling up a case on "The Internets" instead of driving to the law library to get it. And then a month later she announced to the class that you could get cases off "The Internets" instead of driving all the way to the law library. Well, no s h*t, Sherlock. I got a paralegal certificate, but not much knowledge in paralegal school.

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: Worker, tell your brother to pay for your education. Tell him you want to go to court reporting school. Tell him your writer will cost $3,000.

Mary, do you mean the person, or the machine that court reporters use? Isn't court reporting a niche market, I would think court reporters are self-employed. Am I wrong? Back in my call center days, I knew a girl going to court reporting school. Now that I think about it, may be she made the wiser career choice.

To be fair, the dean at my school would be truthful with questions during her classes. I remember someone asking about billable hours and how to accomplish the goal. The dean told us we always had to find a way to make hours(i.e: carrying a piece of paper to write down time, prioritizing tasks,betc.) and that working through lunch and breaks was not an option--because of labor laws. I knew attorneys were demanding--this was always stressed, and anything less than complete attention to minute details was heresy. What I didn't expect was the lowered glass ceiling, and the role technology would play in outsourcing legal work.

Displaced said: Well.............I am male and I got in. But I won't dispute your point.
Perhaps, you're an attractive male? All kidding aside, I do agree with you about exceptions. If only I was as assertive as Dorothy Micheals in "Tootsie."

Knowing what I know, I would still go to school; if I were smart enough to attend law school I would. I'm still star-eyed about the profession, but I'm now working on my plan B.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I don't think I experienced billing until I was OTJ. Your dean gave you excellent suggestions about keeping track of your time.

Your dean is correct about not working through lunch and breaks, but she clearly does not know the real world. One works through lunch and breaks if a project must go out and/or if you have to make your billables. Tell an attorney you won't work through your lunch or break if he/she/it has a rush or emergency and that attorney will likely tell you where the door is. Although IMO so many attorneys are slavedrivers, in fairness not pitching in during a rush or emergency is wrong.

Ah, but she did! She was the Office Manager for a really big firm back in the day. Some of the instructors (attorneys) she used to work for. Some of these instructors are older and not as active as they used to be and others are solo. In over a year of training I only had two paralegal instructors: the dean--whose very active in the paralegal association, and an office manager at mid, or big firm.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Nope. Just a middle-aged guy.

Don't even think about going to law school, even a cut-rate Cal non-ABA school, until you read this article:

www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=1

No, I performed so well in school, that I'm finishing up units in order to qualify for University Transfer.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Nope. Just a middle-aged guy.

Don't even think about going to law school, even a cut-rate Cal non-ABA school, until you read this article:

www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?pagewanted=1

Thanks! I read that. I think you posted on another thread. I do have a cool story about that...

My brother is a UCLA undergrad and JD. His wife: 3rd tier law school. When I started working for my brother he would tell me that it wasn't like our parents said, just because he was a lawyer didn't mean ANYTHING! He told me that all lawyers where critical of where the "other" guy went to school. His wife went to a 3rd tier and worked in ghetto WC boutique firm. He told me that her line of work was "lowly." When it was time for her to look elsewhere she applied to a top 100 US law firm and my brother told me that as a 3rd tier, she wouldn't get it. Guess what? She did. I'm not saying that I'll go to a crappy law school, or even go for that matter. It's just nice to see someone beat the odds.

P.S I found a way for her to quit--and keep her rep intact! Just like Mary said lawyers are vengeful and WC is a niche area around here. Everyone knows each other.

APB: my writing on this forum are not really the way I like to write. It just takes me longer, so I'm writing while the wheels spin in the mud. I hope that's not an inconvenience to everyone. I feel the boards are cathartic, and I don't want to waste time proofing, unless I think the point I'm trying to make accidently hurt someone's feelings.

WorkerBee in Irvine, California said: APB: my writing on this forum are not really the way I like to write. It just takes me longer, so I'm writing while the wheels spin in the mud. I hope that's not an inconvenience to everyone. I feel the boards are cathartic, and I don't want to waste time proofing, unless I think the point I'm trying to make accidently hurt someone's feelings.

*rampant errors duly noted, but ignored nonetheless.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I'd love to see whose side she'd take, then, if an attorney complained that his/her paralegal refused to help him/her during a legitimate emergency or rush because it interfered with paralegal's lunch or break. Believe me, she would know who butters her bread.

That said, attorney would have every right to demand that the paralegal be disciplined, irrespective of labor laws. One simply does not refuse to help an attorney in an emergency or rush. Period.

She told a story once... Said that the office was moving, so all the computers needed to be backed up for the move. This was way, way back in the day (our dean is an older person). All the legal staff just nodded and did as they were told; however, after the move one sec/paralegal (can't remember) lost everything! She didn't know how to back anything up, because everyone nodded in the staff meeting she was too embarrassed to say anything, when help was offered! The dean was pissed, but realized that SHE failed to ask if anyone needed some help. What did the dean do, you ask? She could have fired her, but didn't. She said that firm was a well oiled machine and her mistake was HUGE! But everyone volunteered to restore info to her computer and it turned out to be a great cooperative experience. She said she learned that sometimes you need to tell people that if they need help to ask for it after the meeting.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I'd love to see whose side she'd take, then, if an attorney complained that his/her paralegal refused to help him/her during a legitimate emergency or rush because it interfered with paralegal's lunch or break. Believe me, she would know who butters her bread.

That said, attorney would have every right to demand that the paralegal be disciplined, irrespective of labor laws. One simply does not refuse to help an attorney in an emergency or rush. Period.

No, she said that OT was a slippery slope, and you don't ask for it, for awhile. You do it as a team player, but if it gets out of hand, then and only then do you ask for it. She said there will be times of emergency where you step up.

The only way I'd ever miss a lunch break is if it was a rarity and true emergency. That is completely understandable and I'd want someone to the same for me if I was in their shoes. But if it became a common thing that's different. You need to be treated and respected like a human being, it's not too much to ask.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: I'd love to see whose side she'd take, then, if an attorney complained that his/her paralegal refused to help him/her during a legitimate emergency or rush because it interfered with paralegal's lunch or break. Believe me, she would know who butters her bread.

That said, attorney would have every right to demand that the paralegal be disciplined, irrespective of labor laws. One simply does not refuse to help an attorney in an emergency or rush. Period.

I remember an earlier post about Federal law regarding overtime for paralegals, I think you said it took effect in 2004. We were told this in 2006; moreover, we were expected to make billable hours and step up to help. If unpaid overtime was becoming the norm and not the exception, we were told to begin asking for OT. I think the hard part is determining when OT is becoming the norm.

MarissaH8637 in Clinton Township, Michigan said: The only way I'd ever miss a lunch break is if it was a rarity and true emergency. That is completely understandable and I'd want someone to the same for me if I was in their shoes. But if it became a common thing that's different. You need to be treated and respected like a human being, it's not too much to ask.

I know I would work--but if it was becoming the norm, then I would start updating my resume...at least I hope I would.

Well, it certainly isn't like most of us can just walk away from a paycheck. I certainly wasn't implying that. My whole point is that if you are in a bad situation you should start making your plans for escape. For me I guess that means escaping the profession entirely. Well, cheers to that on this lovely Sunday morning. I'm going to go have a Mimosa and crepes on that note!

Thanks Marissa & Displaced,

The funny thing is all the jobs want experience and a B.A, before coming to this board my plan B was to get the B.A and dive in. Now, I'm going to figure out what to do with a B.A. in Social Ecology.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Below is a link to the 2004 FR section regarding OT for paralegals:

apps.americanbar.org/legalservices/paralegals/downloads/DOL.pdf

I was always paid salary; however, I put in for OT in my first job and was paid it. I put in for it again. That prompted a memo from the shareholder stating that attorneys and paralegals would not be paid OT. I worked in that firm before 2004, before that Labor Department ruling.

That shareholder habitually took advantage of people. At least a couple of paralegals complained to the Wage & Hour board about that woman's unpaid overtime practices. They got nowhere.

I put in plenty of unpaid overtime for my second firm. I started there before 2004 and was done there after that year. But even if I knew about that ruling and tried to use it to be paid for my time, I would have cut my nose to spite my face. I'm sure the SOB would have canned my ass at a time when I needed that job.

Have you ever considered working for your state W.C board, or may be go work in the court house?

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: State jobs are impossible to get. So are courthouse jobs. In any event, no, I'm not interested in any legal jobs.

Consider going to grad school with your B.A.

I am, still working on the skills to get into U.C; hopefully I can with some skills I can blossom into grad school material. Scary considering my age.

P.S: I told my husband everything I learned from you. He's been trying to hire a support staff for over a year. He said you were right on about pounding the pavement by sending your resume to HM's directly. He says that HR only sends him a couple of resumes and the candidates are not qualified to his standards. He knows they're filtering candidates. Only an HM knows what HE/SHE needs in a candidate. He's hiring a guy he has to train...only because the guy is really smart and he can be trained, otherwise he wouldn't have anyone.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: State jobs are impossible to get. So are courthouse jobs. In any event, no, I'm not interested in any legal jobs.

Consider going to grad school with your B.A.

I hope you wouldn't rule out a court clerk position. There's been some stuff in my city, I hope something opens up for you. I've worshiped clerks, they are my gate keepers!

Only an HM knows what HE/SHE needs in a candidate.

Hem. I thought HM interviewed and hired people to please the big boss. Is that what you meant?

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: Only an HM knows what HE/SHE needs in a candidate.

Hem. I thought HM interviewed and hired people to please the big boss. Is that what you meant?

No, my hubby is the boss. He screens and picks his team, exclusively. No input from anyone...no exceptions.

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: Only an HM knows what HE/SHE needs in a candidate.

Hem. I thought HM interviewed and hired people to please the big boss. Is that what you meant?

I think I mis spoke. Hubby is not an HM, he's the manager who hires. So, he says you email the person you'd be working for. Sorry for the confusion, I've only held lowly positions and don't know much about the corporate structure.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: You've the right attitude regarding court clerks. Contrary to so many lawyers who bully them and get nowhere.

I've worked call centers before. I've trained my family to hold on to this maxim: Never, underestimate the power of the low man on the totem pole. With my great CSR skills, I managed to talk to a court clerk while filing my small claims case. After our chat, she called me at home to tell me she made a mistake on the paperwork, and would be making the correction immediately. She assured me it would go out the next day and she would send me a copy of the new paperwork at home--no need to come in and get it!

Once again, no interest in anything law related. I've had my fill of working with/for lawyers. The only way I'll deal with lawyers is as a client. In the meantime, hard times have forced Denver courts to cut personnel.

Let me clarify that issue. I stand by my suggestion to proactively apply directly to law firms. I have suggested asking each firm beforehand for the name and title of the person who receives paralegal resumes. That person could be the office manager, administrator, in-house legal recruiter, a paralegal, or a partner. That person may not be the HM.

Thanks! I don't about those things, but it was great asking my hubby. He's the Department Manager, and said he'd get better candidates, if they could e-mail him directly, with HR colluding with Staffing Agencies, he never gets people whom he really needs. He gets pissed when people are dismissed for not fitting the corporate culture, the only people he says you need to fit in with is your team.

I make that suggestion from experience. When I was a new paralegal and looking for jobs, I sent my materials to, e.g., the first partner's name on the door. I didn't know any better and I had been (improperly) schooled to try to bypass gatekeepers. I would then try to follow up by phone; again, I didn't know any better

Displaced said:
I make that suggestion from experience. When I was a new paralegal and looking for jobs, I sent my materials to, e.g., the first partner's name on the door. I didn't know any better and I had been (improperly) schooled to try to bypass gatekeepers. I would then try to follow up by phone; again, I didn't know any better. If I reached the person at all, (with one exception) the person did not remember my materials. I would be told my materials had been forwarded to the firm's HR function, or I would be given an abrupt brushoff. I caught on shortly to the proper protocol for applying directly to firms.

Thank you so much! While what hubby said is valuable, he's the exception...I could have really messed up an opportunity.
I have a FB friend who is an activities coordinator at Fried Frank in NY. I'm definitely going to ask her how to pound the pavement with grace.

Thanks again, Displaced. When your in my neck of the woods, you and the wife are penciled in for lunch!

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: In no way am I discounting your husband's advice. If anything, wannabe job seekers should take your hubby's excellent advice seriously. My point is one must direct materials to the right person pursuant to protocol. That holds for any job in any industry.

Good luck with however you proceed.

-Never thought you did, but he is in a different industry. The legal industry is just it's own blazing inferno, we must tread carefully, and heed the advice of those who once walked in similar shoes...

WorkerBee- I totally agree with DLP regarding the HM, not HR being who you need to talk to in order to obtain an interview. I also agree with DLP that you should continue grad school. But then again, I am not up-to-date in the area of social ecology. If I could give any piece of advice worth anything of substance, it would be to talk to people in the field and to research as much as you can. Better to go slow and take your time rather than invest in something that may not be the best option for you. It's good to know you are getting a lot out of these boards. I only wish I could have been as wise and so lucky before I started my paralegal schooling.

Edit: continue TO grad school

Overtime for paralegals? I found that funny. The only time I was ever compensated for overtime was many years ago when I had temporary litigation support jobs and was paid on an hourly basis.

I had one such job where I was working with approximately 30 other folks at a mega firm. We were all required to work from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Monday through Friday as well as shortened hours on Saturday. We also worked on one Sunday, as I recall. This projected lasted about three or four months. Ah, I miss that sweat shop. I think I'll send them a resume.

MarissaH8637 in Macomb, Michigan said: WorkerBee- I totally agree with DLP regarding the HM, not HR being who you need to talk to in order to obtain an interview. I also agree with DLP that you should continue grad school. But then again, I am not up-to-date in the area of social ecology. If I could give any piece of advice worth anything of substance, it would be to talk to people in the field and to research as much as you can. Better to go slow and take your time rather than invest in something that may not be the best option for you. It's good to know you are getting a lot out of these boards. I only wish I could have been as wise and so lucky before I started my paralegal schooling.

Actually, I graduated from an ABA accredited program from a community college with an Associate's degree in 2008. Surprisingly, I did very well and after working with my brother for a short time, I decided to follow my dream to obtain a B.A. Social Ecology is actually a major that offers many different career opportunities--even for those who desire to a career in law. I'm hoping that I can qualify for admission to a UC next semester. Since my age is a factor, 34, I'm pretty worried about my future. Do I continue schooling without the guarantee of a job, or do I go a try to work as a paralegal (my dream) and try to get my B.A over an extended period of time (years)? I think I'll go to school, at least I can say that I've accomplished my ultimate fantasy--a college degree!

Parafreegal in Chicago, Illinois said: Overtime for paralegals? I found that funny. The only time I was ever compensated for overtime was many years ago when I had temporary litigation support jobs and was paid on an hourly basis.

I had one such job where I was working with approximately 30 other folks at a mega firm. We were all required to work from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. Monday through Friday as well as shortened hours on Saturday. We also worked on one Sunday, as I recall. This projected lasted about three or four months. Ah, I miss that sweat shop. I think I'll send them a resume.

Thanks, Parafreegal. It's these kinds of stories that are making it a little bit easier for me to just concentrate on getting a B.A degree. Don't get me wrong, I loved school and am proud of the people I helped when I worked for my brother (he's an attorney), but I think I'll try to earn my B.A, and just volunteer at a legal clinic. At least I'll be able to fulfill my paralegal dream-- to help others whenever I can.

DLP is good for a laugh once in awhile. Too bad there's not more action on this forum.

I graduated from a Paralegal College 2003 only to find out my Associates Degree is frowned upon. I have not even a chance to work in a legal office and owe Sallie Mae an Uber amount of money which I keep deferring. I took a UK Paralegal Course since I lived there for 10 years which was like some sort of foundation law course for attorney's. I learned alot from that UK Paralegal Course and got a certificate but how can I use it in the States with my bad downgraded Associates degree in Paralegal Studies...I'm open to advise, Anyone??? Someone???

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Who said your Associates degree is frowned upon? That said, you would be more competitive with a four-year degree. Yeah, it is realized you would go more in hock to Sallie if you finished your last two years.

Although you may have learned a lot in your UK course, it would still be grounded in the British legal system. The British legal system is still different from the American system. Also you may not have learned practical skills applicable to American law offices.

Just keep applying to law firms. I realize COS is a much smaller market than Denver. You might also try Pueblo or even Castle Rock.

Who said my Associates Degree is no good? well the credits are not transferable to another college and the College I attended was not ABA approved, in addition the college I attended closed it's doors and disappeared around 2007. I worked in Conveyancing in the UK as a legal assistant to a solicitor. I returned back to the States in 2009 and for the last two years I am still out of a job. I am in my early 50's and finding this is causing some difficulties also.
I had done volunteer work at the courts as a directory asistant but no other opportunities appeared whilst there. I am still trying, but you have a point on my location.

Paralegal in Dallas, Texas said: I do know happy paralegals. I like my current job and liked my 1st job - the two in the middle - no bueno. So much depends on your attorneys and the culture of the place where you work. Happy paralegals don't leave their good jobs, so it's hard to get those types of jobs. The bad jobs turn over and turn over so it's easy to find yourself in a crummy job working for jerks.

I had too many bad experinece in my paralegal career. My first job was a good experience for 1 and 1/2 years...then came the harassing newbe 26 year old attorney...I was eventully fired about 6 months after he arrived. After that ,

Paralegal in Dallas, Texas said: I do know happy paralegals. I like my current job and liked my 1st job - the two in the middle - no bueno. So much depends on your attorneys and the culture of the place where you work. Happy paralegals don't leave their good jobs, so it's hard to get those types of jobs. The bad jobs turn over and turn over so it's easy to find yourself in a crummy job working for jerks.

My first paralegal job I liked..the training job, then came the nightmare newbe attorney (26 years old who bossed me, and harrassed when my boss was not in office) I was fired after 1 year and 9 months on the job...then my career went down hill from ther on..the worst events took place when I moved to Miami, FL 1999.

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: I'm a great writer. I got to do a lot of drafting of motions for summary judgment, etc. You will feel really special when you spent a lot of time and mental energy doing a job few others can do. But don't expect any whoopy-do from anybody.

Mary, I have a question for you (but anyone else who has an opinion, feel free to jump in): I'm drafting a Plaintiff's Motion for Summary Judgment right now - the defendant previously filed an Answer with several affirmative defenses which need to be addressed or else the Court will deny our MSJ. Would you address the affirmative defenses in the MSJ or draft a separate Reply to Affirmative Defenses?

Paralegals write Motions for Summary Judgment? That's interesting. I think that's venturing much too far into lawyer territory as well as possibly UPL. But I'm no expert.

Yup, you'd be surprised. As long as the attorney reviews, and gives instruction/direction and reviews/approves it's fine.

Parafreegal in Chicago, Illinois said: Paralegals write Motions for Summary Judgment? That's interesting. I think that's venturing much too far into lawyer territory as well as possibly UPL. But I'm no expert.

I did. I was an exception. I worked for my attorney for eight years. My writing skills were comparative to his - so I did a lot of his writing. I followed his formats from previous pleadings, did bolding where needed his input, and gave him the drafts with little notes. Of course he reviewed and reviewed.