Trashing the Profession

Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia said:

(from what I hear, it still isn't - Miami is all about litigation, immigration and real estate).

I never really liked Miami. ...

Correct about legal jobs. I loved Miami- it just did not love me back. GOt terminated, terminated , terminated...and the beat went on. It spun my head so bad- I do not think it is wrapped right to this day.

Boston is an expensive town but I got a huge jump in salary compared to what I was making in Miami (I went from 20K to 28K - this was 89-90). I did have a roommate when I first moved there, then moved into an expensive dungeon in Beacon Hill that I really couldn't afford. I lucked out when I found a one-bedroom in South Boston that was way below market rent. My landlord would raise the rent $25 every so often and was very apologetic about it. They don't make landlords like that anymore!

And meanwhile, my salary kept going up because I was in IP and I switched firms a few times. But I also put up with a lot of bad behavior from a lot of attorneys who were demanding and sometimes downright bizarre. IP attracts a weird crowd.

Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia said: Boston is an expensive town but I got a huge jump in salary compared to what I was making in Miami (I went from 20K to 28K - this was 89-90). I did have a roommate when I first moved there, then moved into an expensive dungeon in Beacon Hill that I really couldn't afford. I lucked out when I found a one-bedroom in South Boston that was way below market rent. My landlord would raise the rent $25 every so often and was very apologetic about it. They don't make landlords like that anymore!

And meanwhile, my salary kept going up because I was in IP and I switched firms a few times. But I also put up with a lot of bad behavior from a lot of attorneys who were demanding and sometimes downright bizarre. IP attracts a weird crowd.

Yeah- I know Beacon Hill - I went to school at B.U. Hate the cold now. You had a great landlord in South Boston. And salary increase higher than rent increase. I was terminated for other issues, strange, bazaar, messed up ones- in Miami. Still love Miami- it is hot. HUM- changed jobs a few times. Well , you did it when employed- most likely- get your best results that way..I have no idea what bad behavior is anymore- I know insanity, I know being messed over, I know unrelistic expectations resulting in way way too too much stress.

Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia said:

Boston is an expensive town but I got a huge jump in salary compared to what I was making in Miami (I went from 20K to 28K - this was 89-90)... I lucked out when I found a one-bedroom in South Boston ...And meanwhile, my salary kept going up ..

Wow- salary- as commented- I freaked, when I began my paralegal interviews and heard 20-25k..in phila...[That is a bank job with no college degree pay..] .Apparently- that was the pay, scary but true. I ended up at $11/hour, outside of Phila, no train fare, no city-wage tax. Food and beer money, ha... Then-- I fell upon Brickell, in Miami- lived there- paradise- serious job problems in Miami. Yeah, I changed jobs. Nothing susscesful to speak of. Otherwise- I would still be living there.

Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia said:

And meanwhile, my salary kept going up because I was in IP and I switched firms a few times. But I also put up with a lot of bad behavior from a lot of attorneys who were demanding and sometimes downright bizarre. IP attracts a weird crowd.

An IP paralegal in NYC posted making 68k with 10 years experience. Yeah, Ip is different type of thinking;technical, enginereing from what I have heard.

Here is the perfect answer to General Council, my boss' statement:You really do not know anything.

Answer: That's Ok. I 'll just go back to doing what I don't know becasue it seems to working out real well.

Would I have loved to said that. The incompetent General Council who was soon removed from his position and remanded back to the mortgage department. ha.

Further answer: Yeah, works getting done, contracts are being closed, money is being made. This plan of not knowing anthing is good. Yeah, I'll stick to that.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: ROFLAO!!! I love it!!!! Those are classics, Cindy! I would have loved to lay some gems like those on my last attorney-SOB!

Time for a book cartoon on these butterballs and pickles. ha.

I have more.

Overview - been reading some blogs by attorneys. Seems like all legAL JOBS ARE disapearing and lay-offs, lay-offs of staff and lawyers. From what I read, IP is still strong. SO, IP paralegal in Washington D.C. is doing good. As the recession has not affected legal in Texas- Dallas has a great gig going on.

The lawyer blogs talked about how once you enter the "document review" path - you are doomed, unless you can get a job in the government, professor in law school, etc. Yeah- becasue they are considered the inferiors who are not that bright.

My thoughts on being a Paralegal temping in-between jobs - I do not see it as bad. You are keeping up your skills- you are losing nothing. Sometimes you pick up new skills - as I did (cont'd)

(cont'd)
Paralegal temping falls into 2 catagories: (1) legal secretary temping in litigation and (2) temping straight paralegal.

As to learning new skills- I got a Paralegal temp assignemnt, from a Paralegal only temp agency. It was me (Paralega) and a law graduate waiting to get results of bar exam. He was cool, originally from Jamaca- ANYhoo-our assignemt was in a corporation and they had books of Incorporation that had apparently been put t0gether way too fast- as in they were messed up big time with lots of mistakes. Have I ever worked in corporate.NO. BUT- (con't)

kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: Time for a book cartoon on these butterballs and pickles. ha.

I have more.

Butterballs (code for a word that starts with Bas...) Pickles (code for word that starts with pri.....) get it.

(cont'd)

BUT - I had the Business Organigations Law class. AND, one of our hand on projects was to Incorporate a business. We were given a list of specifics on what was the purpose of incorporation, and the By-laws. Additionally, after drafting the Certificate of Incorporation,including stock. (some of the information was vague, to be figured out by what we had been taught) And a list of specifics for the By-laws. 3 students in a team to do the project, so we delegated sections of the assignment and put it all together. (cont'd)

(cont'd)

SO, onward we go. I took on the By-laws. Actually, it was fun, hard, challenging and I got into it. WOuld sit in the Widener Law School library on campus (of course) and I got the book of draft documents outs (specific to our project), plus the Delaware Code, and our Business Law Book as a resource. I would be in the library on Saturday night, with all 3 books spread out on the table, and working my way through each specific. My law student buddies would come by and say this looks impressive - what are you working on. (cont'd)

(cont'd)

I told the law students that my project was to form a corporation. They were amazed and impressed in a positive way and said they wished they had such assignments - they were learning only theory.

Anyhoo- when we finished the Certificate of Incorporation, By-laws, we had to write a memo on how and where you file the Certificate. Geez- got an "A" on that project. It was excellent experience.

Back to the temp paralegal assignment. To my surprise, the law student (waiting to get bar results) told me that I knew what I was doing, knew more than he did, and he was looking to me for some clarifiaction. He was cool, so it was a give and take deal of knowledge share working on the project.

Specifically, there were about 12 incorpoartion books. (cont'd)

(cont'd) We had to pull each Incorporation Book, and check the Incorporation Documents to make sure everything matched up. Such as, the incorporation name, BB inc. is not the same as BB incorporated. Also had to check that stock amount shares stated in Certificate of Incorporation matched with the Stock Cerificate. These Incorporations were obviously put togethter quickly and sloppily. So many mistakes. BUT that was why we were there. To get them corrected.

It was easy for me to apply me knowledge learned in Paralegal school to hands on real life Incorporations. GEEZ- It was cool. Needed no direction, except what our task were - and then went to it. The graduated law student was impressed cause I knew how to just dive in and knew what to check for. He and I worked as a team. They gave us vague instructions (as idiots were in charge of the project supervison)

Anyhoo - here I was 5 years out of Paralegal school and Had been working as a Litigation paralegal , and all of the knowledge gained in school, came back to me in an instant when I had the real life Incorporation books in front of me. Knew just what to dloodo, after instructions of what we were looking for.

SO- That was an addition to my resume of skills. And it was a Paralegal temp assignment.

BULL,BULL - my temp assignemnt did not ruin my resume. They added or kept me abreast.

I was a competent paralegal, in the work I was given. Overall, after my 1st job where I learned the necessary basics of litigation - my employers misunderstood me and were shocked, surprised at what I knew, some applauded me, some took advantage of me. Pretty female, fit and smart. And the Pickeles and Butterballs ruined my career- the career of a capable person, who did not make trouble and speak out of turn. (oh yeah, i screwed up every once on a while. but I knew it immediateley and started back-peddling swiftly and quickly. ) No- I was not full of myself. Just- when I knew what I was doing, I knew what I was doing.

(cont'd)

I fear that "misunderstood" is also code for "misfit in society"
That is not good. Dress like, talks like, can do like, is pretty and well-dressed- yet misunderstood - and utimately destroyed.

I was the last person to think what happened to me could happen- as others were also. I was a very strong person and resilient, and knew what I was doing- Tis sad. to this day.

(cont'd)

Admittedly - screwed up at some big firm interviews at the beginning of my career. Should not have- but I was unprepared for a few questions should have been prepared for. Preparation for interview is paramount. My mistake - one question gone wrong - you are toast.

As to the jobs I was hired at- they went every which way but up. Even though there was no problem with the work I was doing. And beings that I am in my office working, how much damage can I do. I have excellent skills on phone with clients, etc. That was pointed out to me by some of my temp attorneys. Oh-well,

Anyhoo- these are my experience on temp assigments while looking for employment. Point - you do not lose the skills you have gained as a Paralegal- you continue to keep them honed.

Experienced IP paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia said: Miami was bad for me as a young IP paralegal with a couple years experience. [QUOTE]/

Every place is unhappy when you are making it paycheck to ...

However - you over came all obstacles - moved forward- and now at least- you can say you work for a "hot shot" firm in DC.

Snaps for IP in Washington, DC

<<From what I read, IP is still strong. SO, IP paralegal in Washington D.C. is doing good.
However - you over came all obstacles - moved forward- and now at least- you can say you work for a "hot shot" firm in DC>>

Thanks kmm. But I'm still scared. And all my friends in IP are scared, even in DC. I read abovethelaw.com every day and every day there's more news of layoffs. Two of the firms I worked at in Boston, Foley Hoag and Fish & Richardson, recently had layoffs of both attorneys and staff. And Fish is IP. So much for IP being recession-proof.

DC-based firms have, so far, not had major layoffs but I don't expect firms here to be immune forever. Granted, all the government work does help, but we're affected by what's going on with our clients, and it's not pretty.

My own personal situation is scary because I don't have enough work and when I see how much unbillable time I have every day, I feel like a sitting duck. I'm going to bring this up this week with the head of the IP group because I feel I have to be proactive at this point. The other paralegal will not be happy if she has to give up work (she wants the annual bonus based on billable hours) but I'm worried about staying employed so I can't be concerned about that.

Everybody screws up. The difference is: (1) The one who rarely screws up and trys beyond belief to please an AH, but he finds fault with everything; and (2) the little princess who screws up, and it is either ignored or someone else is blamed.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Compare working in law to being rubbed against a carborundum stone. Both actions will grind you. They will weaken your resolve - but increase your resolve never to work for lawyers again.

Good stories, Cindy.

I vow never to work for attorneys again.

Experienced IP Paralegal in Washington, District of Columbia said: <<From what I read, IP is still strong. SO, IP paralegal in Washington D.C. is doing good.
However - you over came all obstacles - moved forward- and now at least- you can say you work for a "hot shot" firm in DC>>

Thanks kmm...Fish & Richardson, recently had layoffs of both attorneys and staff. And Fish is IP. So much for IP being recession-proof.

My own personal situation is scary because I don't have enough work and when I see how much unbillable time I have every day, I feel like a sitting duck. I'm going to bring this up this week with the head of the IP group because I feel I have to be proactive at this point. The other paralegal will not be happy if she has to give up work (she wants the annual bonus based on billable hours) but I'm worried about staying employed so I can't be concerned about that.

WOW- there is nothing worse than working in fear of losing your job. Smart move to try proactive - and get more billables.

Maybe it is just slow - beginning of year, and your clients are doing internal adjustments. WHo knows.

Fish & Richardson- IP only. The firm has a satelitte office in Wilmington, DE [or did]

kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said:

The lawyer blogs talked about how once you enter the "document review" path - you are doomed, unless you can get a job in the government, professor in law school, etc. Yeah- becasue they are considered the inferiors who are not that bright.

Now that is the "trash" that only the "government agencies" will pick up. ha- its a pun!

Mary inTampa in Tampa, Florida said: Everybody screws up. The difference is: (1) The one who rarely screws up and trys beyond belief to please an AH, but he finds fault with everything; and (2) the little princess who screws up, and it is either ignored or someone else is blamed.

Everybody screws up [sometimes] Cool, I'm human. I am a human error. ha, another pun!

(1) AKA- the nitpickers. (2) AKA - the social deviant.

kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: Everybody screws up [sometimes] Cool, I'm human. I am a human error. ha, another pun!

(1) AKA- the nitpickers. (2) AKA - the social deviant.

I am a human polysemy.

kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: (cont'd)

Admittedly - screwed up at some big firm interviews at the beginning of my career. Should not have- but I was unprepared for a few questions should have been prepared for. Preparation for interview is paramount. My mistake - one question gone wrong - you are toast.

As to the jobs I was hired at- they went every which way but up. ...

Point-if you find you carer going this way - something is wrong, you are doing something wrong. YOu did something wrong. Bad judgment (choices) and bad luck will ruin any career.

Dallas in TX, IP in Wash D.C., DLP in Denver, the Paralegal now in Las Vegas, loyalramfan in Los Angelos, ALL of these paralegls have one major thing in common. THEY CAN HOLD DOWN A JOB.

Grant and KMM- not so much.

I started a paralegal progam at my community college. Since that first class, I have been having serious doubts about paralegal as a profession.

I have been running searches to keep on top of the paralegal job market in my state (Indiana). Typically, I have found very few jobs, or jobs that require 5 years experience. This has been very troubling.

Personally, I would be willing to put up with a tough work enviroment (at least for a while), but the lack of paralegal jobs is what really scares me.

I see a huge inconsistency between what the Bureau of Labor and Statistics is reporting (paralegal jobs are growing)- and what I am seeing on job search sites (very few jobs). Who is telling the truth, and who is stretching it?

The truth is being stretched. Indiana is very rough for a legal job right now. I am on Unemployment in Florida. I too got that info that paralegal was growing - the same info I was given four years ago. I can't imagine where that info comes from.

Thanks Mary I appreciate your insight!

I tried to "pry" the truth out of the director of my college's paralegal program- but I did not get anywhere near it. She was not very helpful at all. She did say one thing that raised a red flag- that was that Eli Lilly (big employer of paralegals in Indiana) requires paralegals to have a bachelors degree. All the while she was professing that an A.A.S. is all you need to to be a paralegal. The mixed messages caused me to do some serious research. I found your blog, and I am not suprised by the amount of negative experiences and comments I have read on it.

Some colleges are (after having done some serious research), are calling paralegal a "recession proof" career.

One other thing that I would like to mention at the risk of sounding like a snob, but it is the truth. Many of my fellow class mates seemed very "dull" to put it mildly. The reason I say this is because we were permitted to use note cards for our tests- yet half the class failed the tests. I wondered why so many poorly motivated people, or plain "dullards" were attracted to the paralegal program. I am guessing that the reason is because the field is not highly regulated with admissions standards and mandatory licensing?

I was NOT proud to be among them.

I straight up asked the guy working at the paralegal school I attended why he signed up people who had no hope of getting a job and he agreed that most of the folks in the class would not get jobs, but he didn't want to be the one to squish their goals, but, what if, what if, one of those people he didn't think could get a job actually got a job? He didn't want to be the one to poo-poo them. Course, he also got a kickback for every person he signed up. There's financial motivation to sign up students no matter what.

I attended paralegal school 12 years ago and they fed us that load of crap about fastest growing profession, too. Oh my. Whay a load. If it were really the fastest growing why were all the jobs on the Job Board fake or years old? They told us 11 jobs per graduate, when they really meant 11 graduates per job.

It was really just a theory somebody had - paralegal *should* be a fast growing profession as employers *should* figure out they can get a cheaper paralegal to do the work of attorneys. You think attorneys want to shift their work to paralegals? Heck no. Who do you think has more power - the American Bar Association or a unregulated, hodge podge of paralegal and legal assistant organizations? Shoot, they can't even decide what to call themselves - paralegals? Legal Assistants? So attorneys say paralegals can't work without supervision of attorneys. They can't do this or do that. Paralegals are essentially secretaries who have to take more blame when things go wrong.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Continued.....

Bottom line is paralegal is a legal support position. Not "paralawyers," or second chairs, as paralegal schools can lead one to believe.

Exactly! The perception is paralegals are paralawyers. So true. Big difference.

In a billable situation (litigation, where I work) the firm makes more money if attorneys draft a motion. If it's an easy motion, the secretary drafts it and the attorney bills for it at $300/hr. If I did it, the firm would make less money since I bill at $95/hour. The firm makes more if the secretary does it and at the same time the attorney is doing something else also at the $300/hr rate - essentially bringing in $600/hr. Why would he give that work to me? Bring in $600/hr or $395/hr?

We got a new client today - new insurance company, ya know - and you should see the Billing Guidelines. They will not pay attorneys or paralegals to draft deposition notices, certificate of services or any document that was copied over and just customized for this case. They won't pay paralegals to make copies, review invoices, send transmittal letters, schedule anything including meetings, depositions, and hearings, or make travel arrangements. They won't pay for depositon summaries or Bates labeling. They won't pay mileage for any travel within 25 miles of the lawfirm office. They will not pay travel expenses for anything out of town including depositions. (We have lots of out of town depositions since experts are all over the country.) Only one attorney can attend trial should the case go to trial. (We usually take at least 2, sometimes 3.) No paralegals at trial.

The paralegal's job responsibilities are just being eroded by the clients, besides having attorney's hoarding billable work. We are squeezed out.

Paralegals were considered BIG when clients had very lax (if any) guidelines. Problems arose when the term "paralegals" came into existence and law firms could bill for the work done by a non attorney. Greed got in the way.

I worked for two really big law firms. I had to do the billing for partners in both. The first job I had I did a lot of drafting and file maintenance - which the attorney billed for. The second job, I got secretary title - and the partner billed for something, and his cheesy paralegal also billed for it (Receipt and review of notice of deposition of X - .01).

Corporations like Wachovia Bank, State Farm Insurance - would get their legal invoice - and would literally be blown away by frivilous billing. They now have "billing experts" who review the law firm billing - and they refuse payment for what is out of the guidelines.

Thanks Everyone,

Your insight has been invaluable. You essentially told me what I suspected all along. As for me, I am going to do an about face and change my major this fall- before I waste anymore time and money.

Interesting enough, there was a news article on AOL that stated a student is suing a college because she cannot find a job upon graduation. She wants the $70,000 she spent on a bachelors degree back! If she wins (and who knows if she will?)- it may set a precendent for misleading or false advertising in colleges. Anything is possible, after all, in my life time I have seen the auto & banking industries go belly-up. Could education be next on the list?

Up through the 70's college education was considered the road to success. It benefitted the person getting educated FAR MORE than it benefitted the school. Things have changed. Unless in a specialized area, today education benefits the school more than the person.

Great article on MSN today about job hunting - what's a waste of time:

1 - sending your resume unsolicited.
2 - Going to job fairs (unless it's a college one).
3 - Earning certifications nobody wants.
4 - Paying a headhunter (we've had discussions about this).
5 - Resume fax blasting services.

Was that Guru who said to show up and tout your resume? Employers get irked - fast.

Displaced Legal Professional in Denver, Colorado said: Very little respect, actually..... ....but none of the authority. Never. If something goes the least bit wrong, attorneys blame the paralegals. It's always the paralegal's responsibility if something goes wrong, and usually if the attorney misinformed the paralegal or did not give the paralegal adequate direction. ....

Oh, Love it when it is the attorneys' fault because I was not "informed" ....of course he makes a big deal out of a small nothing....realized it eventually. got the info. sent him an en-mail - "thank you. I had not been informed."

Hum - the mind-reading skills

kmm in Wilmington, Delaware said: The profession is a tough one. Lots of pitfall. And there are good stories. A paralegal associate friend got her college degree, then paralegal certificate, then got a job a Paralegal job at SKadden Arps, a NY based firm that pays NY wages. this was in Delaware. She started mid twenties of age, worked there for 10 years. Around age 32 she met and married an attorney, with old money. After her 10 years she no longer works, had one child and is happy and has the life of abundance and money.

Oh great story....NOT! Worked as a Parlegal, got married to a man with "old money" and now happy! Thanks for the input!

dh in Northern CA, California said: ...

Thank you for the words of wisdom dh.